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  1. #1
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    chapter 3

    Hi, Me again.

    One point I didn't find to be clear in Chapter 3 was the creation of magic items.

    Magical items are relatively uncommon in Cerilia. Although magical items can be created using the standard rules presented in the Player's Handbook, most Cerilian wizards prefer not to spend their vital essence (XP) and fortunes (gp) in the creation of miscellaneous disposable magical items. Cerilian artificers tend not to waste their efforts on the creation of minor devices. The magical devices that do exist in Cerilia are generally quite powerful, and rarely have a market value below 4000gp.
    To me, this doesn't limit the creation of magic items at all, thus creating a normal magic world. It basically says that cerilian wizards would generally not bother with lesser magic items, but the rules themselves would be the same. I had read on these forums that cost of creating magic items is doubled. This is a good example of a rule that may need clarification.


    The variant, of spending RP instead of Experience would limit the creation of magic items, both because of additional time, and the fact that I wouldn't want to spend my RP on items as a cerilian wizard, I may need them to fend a source from a regent trying to rule up a province level or usurper trying to claim a source.

    Do we want to limit magic creation?

    I do, that's one of the things I like about the setting, but I don't want to make them too rare for players. As a matter of fact, one of the things I like about 3rd edition is how easy and creative players can make and be with magic items. Those 2 ideas are a little at odds with eachother. So here is another variant for your consideration.

    Variant: Unlike other realms where Magic permeates the air, and every living creature, on Cerilia it is locked in the land. At the Battle of Deismar when the gods died and their essense flowed into the land and their followers the magic force o the world became locked in the land, no longer flowing freely through everything. This is why only scion wizards can fully access the mebhaighl of the land. Creating Magic Items on Cerilia requires expenditure of Time, Experience Points, RP, access to a source and Money. Magic items are created in the exact way described in the players with 2 noticable exceptions. The Wizard must spend 1 RP for every 1000 Gold peices to create item and have access to a source level strong enough to support the creation of the magic item. To find out is the Source is strong enough, square the source level and multiply it by 5,000 GP to determine the maximum value of magic item that can be created at that source. So, a source 1 can support creating magic items of up to 5,000 GP value, a source 5 can support up to 125,000 GP value. The lab used to creat the item must be physically near the source, or a ley line can be created from the appropriate source to the lab. For Priests it is a similar process except that they must have a temple holding powerful enough to support the item being created, like casting realm magic, they must also marshall the faithful making the creation of magical items a public affair for priests, this can be dangerous. While the gold must be available up front, the RP can be expended over the entire course of the creation process. In this way if the item takes multiple seasons to create the artificer can stop and pick-up creating the item as they have the opportunity. I suggest making rate of RP expenditure be 1 RP per day of working on the item being created. This is up to the GM, but I feel it is a more realistic way to handle it, ad doesn't allow an artificer that is 1 day away from creating an item, but 30 RP get a boon from a friend and finish it in one day.

    This variant allows for players to create magic items, but limits their availability because only Blooded scions with powerful sources can create them.
    Last edited by ploesch; 08-10-2006 at 05:59 AM.

  2. #2
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    Good idea.

    An idea I had is very simple:

    Heroes are above the common man in their world...even
    above monarchs who commonly only sit upon their
    throne. Casters of magic are described as rare in
    Cerilia...they just aren`t that common. Since they
    aren`t that common, and many don`t even reach
    significant level to create the more powerful magic
    items, magic items are rare...at least higher end
    items.

    This is simply a role-playing thing...and in no way a
    rule. But I like the idea that PCs are simply
    different from others in their world...they are what
    the stories are about and so should be "above" the
    average Scion even. Sure, the Gorgon has +5 this and
    that and is a powerful wizard...but he is like the
    Sauron of Cerilia and should be powerful.

    Does even High Mage Aelies run around sporting magic
    items bulging out of his portable hole? Nope...and he
    is one of the most powerful wizards in all of Anuire!

    So I think it is ok for players to make magic items
    just as they are in the 3.5e...even though I still
    miss the days when characters had to be around level 9
    to start making magic items (way back in AD&D).


    Anthony Edwards

    --- ploesch <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

    > Hi, Me again.
    >
    > One point I didn`t find to be clear in Chapter 3 was
    > the creation of magic items.
    >
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > Magical items are relatively uncommon in Cerilia.
    > Although magical items can be created using the
    > standard rules presented in the Player`s Handbook,
    > most Cerilian wizards prefer not to spend their
    > vital essence (XP) and fortunes (gp) in the creation
    > of miscellaneous disposable magical items. Cerilian
    > artificers tend not to waste their efforts on the
    > creation of minor devices. The magical devices that
    > do exist in Cerilia are generally quite powerful,
    > and rarely have a market value below 4000gp.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > To me, this doesn`t limit the creation of magic
    > items at all, thus creating a normal magic world.
    > It basically says that cerilian wizards would
    > generally not bother with lesser magic items, but
    > the rules themselves would be the same. I had read
    > on these forums that cost of creating magic items is
    > doubled. This is a good example of a rule that may
    > need clarification.
    >
    >
    > The variant, of spending RP instead of Experience
    > would limit the creation of magic items, both
    > because of additional time, and the fact that I
    > wouldn`t want to spend my RP on items as a cerilian
    > wizard, I may need them to fend a source from a
    > regent trying to rule up a province level or usurper
    > trying to claim a source.
    >
    > Do we want to limit magic creation?
    >
    > I do, that`s one of the things I like about the
    > setting, but I don`t want to make them too rare for
    > players. As a matter of fact, one of the things I
    > like about 3rd edition is how easy and creative
    > players can make and be with magic items. Those 2
    > ideas are a little at odds with eachother. So here
    > is another variant for your consideration.
    >
    > Variant: Unlike other realms where Magic permeates
    > the air, and every living creature, on Cerilia it is
    > locked in the land. This is why only scion wizards
    > can fully access the mebhaighl of the land.
    > Creating Magic Items on Cerilia requires expenditure
    > of Time, Experience Points, RP, access to a source
    > and Money. Magic items are created in the exact way
    > described in the players with 2 noticable
    > exceptions. The Wizard must spend 1 RP for every
    > 1000 Gold peices to create item and have access to a
    > source level strong enough to support the creation
    > of the magic item. To find out is the Source is
    > strong enough, square the source level and multiply
    > it by 5,000 GP to determine the maximum value of
    > magic item that can be created at that source. So,
    > a source 1 can support creating magic items of up to
    > 5,000 GP value, a source 5 can support up to 125,000
    > GP value. The lab used to creat the item must be
    > physically near the source, or a ley line can be
    > created from the appropriate source to the lab. For
    > Priests it is a similar process except that they
    > must have a temple holding powerful enough to
    > support the item being created, like casting realm
    > magic, they must also marshall the faithful making
    > the creation of magical items a public affair for
    > priests, this can be dangerous.
    >
    > This variant allows for players to create magic
    > items, but limits their availability because only
    > Blooded scions with powerful sources can create
    > them.

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ploesch
    Hi, Me again.
    The variant, of spending RP instead of Experience would limit the creation of magic items, both because of additional time, and the fact that I wouldn't want to spend my RP on items as a cerilian wizard, I may need them to fend a source from a regent trying to rule up a province level or usurper trying to claim a source.
    Well, source regents are already going to be burning regency at a fast rate anyway. The amount of regency required for realm spells is substantially higher than the meagre amounts required for magic item creation.

    Your point about the time is acknowledged, however; I'd add a further query here - is this 32 days a one-time extension? If I'm making a magic item worth 200000gp then that's a 200 day creation time. Standard 3.5 rules say that I can do a bit here, a bit there - it doesn't have to be consecutive. In Birthright, with this rule, it looks like this is only going to take me 232 days to make.

    Fair enough. Normally, that would cost me 8000XP. Under this variant, I could use 800 Regency - does that all have to come at once, or can I spend "a bit here, a bit there" the same way I can spend the time? It strikes me as highly unlikely that any wizard is ever going to be allowed to have 800 Regency in the bank; to maintain that for 6 months would require a 401 bloodline score, and if you have a 401 bloodline score then no teeny little magical item worth only 200K is going to be worth your notice.

    (snipped variant)
    Your variant looks completely workable to me. I might well suggest our DM adopt this as a house rule.

    It does suffer from the same question regarding whether or not you can "space out" the regency cost, though; the 200K item would cost 200 regency to make (and under your variant I still have to spend the 8000XP - acceptable); would you suggest that this had to come all at once, or could I spend it over the course of the 200 days (at a minimum, over 2 seasons - and more realistically probably a full year)?

    If it has to come all at once, then we're restricting the power of magic items as well as the rarity - which is arguably not what is desired. As I understand it, we want to make magic items rare, but not weak.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The information in Chap 3 concerning creating magic items is wrong.

    Chapter 8 covers creating magic items. I had tried to get the magic item information inserted into Ch 3 when we put the playtest document together but was overruled and thus Ch 8 is the source for information on magic items.

    When Ch 3 is revised that variant will be removed.

    I have a pretty strong opinion on allowing the substituion of RP for exp in creating magic items. I equate RP to interest and exp to capital. IN the core rules a character is giving up part of his essence (i.e., exp) to create items. Sacrificing part of his bloodline (i.e., bloodline score) is IMO a better substitution.

    Swapping RP for gp for item creation is likewise not wise.

    The rules allow sacrificing RP to pay maintenance costs but what this is equating to is that basically the regent is drawing on his emotional bank account (to use Covey terminology) it "pay"" the people performing the labor. RP is a reflection of the loyalty and devotion of the land and people.

    Now this exchange doesn't seem to be applicable to "objects" and things that don't have an emotional attachment to the regent so I would be very very hesitant to allow RP for gp exchange for item creation.


    From Ch 8
    Creating magical items

    Variant - Substitutions for experience points in item creation

    Blooded characters can opt to sacrifice their bloodline score in lieu of experience points to cast spells that require the expenditure of experience points or to create magic items. The exchange rate is 750 experience points for every point of bloodline score so sacrificed. This sacrifice can only be used once per item or spell.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    I have a pretty strong opinion on allowing the substituion of RP for exp in creating magic items. I equate RP to interest and exp to capital. IN the core rules a character is giving up part of his essence (i.e., exp) to create items. Sacrificing part of his bloodline (i.e., bloodline score) is IMO a better substitution.
    If you make that the only way (ie you can't spend XP), that will pretty much guarantee you get the "rare magic".

    However, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, there seems to be a sort of precedent here with realm spells. "Normal" spells sometimes have a material component, and sometimes have an experience point cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while realm spells all require expensive material components, they do not require XP (and indeed it would seem logical that they shouldn't, as such magic is beyond the ability of a moral caster to "power" with his own lifeforce). If realm spells can be looked at as substituting regency for XP - which seems a not totally unreasonable deduction - then there is some scope for arguing that you might be able to tap into the source to power the creation of magical items as well.

    Swapping RP for gp for item creation is likewise not wise.
    Technically, couldn't you sort of do that anyway? Use Alchemy, then use the Finance action?

    I realise that most regents who spend their domain treasuries for personal reasons will arise the ire of their subjects, but a source regent doesn't really have any subjects, right?

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza666
    If you make that the only way (ie you can't spend XP), that will pretty much guarantee you get the "rare magic".
    But then elves wouldn't be able to create magic items - unless they are scions. It still seems better to just increase the cost (and thus the exp required) in order to create them. This causes less of a deviation from the core rules and follows guidelines established in the Complete Warrior for low magic item games (pg 137)

    However, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, there seems to be a sort of precedent here with realm spells. "Normal" spells sometimes have a material component, and sometimes have an experience point cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while realm spells all require expensive material components, they do not require XP (and indeed it would seem logical that they shouldn't, as such magic is beyond the ability of a moral caster to "power" with his own lifeforce). If realm spells can be looked at as substituting regency for XP - which seems a not totally unreasonable deduction - then there is some scope for arguing that you might be able to tap into the source to power the creation of magical items as well.
    Not the same thing at all.

    RP for realm spells is a component of the spell. Looking at Realm Spells substituting RP for xp follows the same path that I believe to be faulty by not sacrificing part of the caster's essence. Now there is nothing that correlates expensive components with xp in the core rules - and that is also a path that some people tend to follow, that is equating expensive components with exp.


    Technically, couldn't you sort of do that anyway? Use Alchemy, then use the Finance action?
    And that is the point of the spell - to swap out RP for GB. But there is no equivalent for exp in the equation. Allowing an option to swap RP for GB without using the Realm Spells would render the spells useless, IMO. Alchemy was a very significant Realm Spell in 2nd ed.

    Also realize that GB do not equal gp they are actually measures of value and trade (grain, goods, etc.) so they do not have a direct correlation - and that is also something that gets lost in the analysis.

    I realise that most regents who spend their domain treasuries for personal reasons will arise the ire of their subjects, but a source regent doesn't really have any subjects, right?
    That is why converting GB to gp is a court action. And since most wizards don't have courts this becomes a standard domain action for them.
    Duane Eggert

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    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    OK, so I just need to read further along.

    Still, I'm glad to have some clarity on creating Magic Items in Cerilia.

    I hope you don't mind me crtiqueing as I read.

    You've done an excellent job, and I have the utmost respect for the time and love you've put into this project.

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ploesch
    OK, so I just need to read further along.
    A lot of people either skip over or don't read Cha 8. There is a lot of useful information there. It was basically the place to put things that didn't quite fit in another section or that crossed mutliple sections.
    Duane Eggert

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    Junior Member nagebenfro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    A lot of people either skip over or don't read Cha 8. There is a lot of useful information there. It was basically the place to put things that didn't quite fit in another section or that crossed mutliple sections.
    I just read the chapter, and I have to say i've fallen in love with it. Thank you for highlighting it's existance to me.

    There are so many plot hooks possible with people competing for those magic items, for a start, and I can't wait to try out some of them.

  10. #10
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza666
    .....It does suffer from the same question regarding whether or not you can "space out" the regency cost, though; the 200K item would cost 200 regency to make (and under your variant I still have to spend the 8000XP - acceptable); would you suggest that this had to come all at once, or could I spend it over the course of the 200 days (at a minimum, over 2 seasons - and more realistically probably a full year)?.....
    I would allow it to be spent over the entire course of the creation, perhaps at a set rate, like 1 per day of actually working on it. I have changed my variant rules above.

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