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Thread: Elves and things about them
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08-07-2006, 01:10 PM #21
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Originally Posted by irdeggman
Firstly, the feats in PH2 for fighters are so much more powerful (in general) than comparable feats in PH that they really should consider OGLing them, because high level fighters in a PH2less game are really missing out.
With that said, though, there's nothing that really jumps out and makes me rethink my position. The odd +2 to hit and damage here and there isn't really enough to even what is already a very lopsided equation.
Begs the question, of course: what do I think would do the job? Well, if I were redesigning D&D from scratch (which surprisingly nobody's asking me to do ), I'd probably use the rogue as the baseline class. That would mean giving fighter types a little more oomph, and seriously depowering high level magic. I'd give serious consideration to something like the Incarnum stuff as a replacement for the core magic system, as it has a great feature: namely, that picking up a few levels of another class isn't a terribly bad idea. With wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, psions, and wilders, multiclassing into anything that doesn't give full spellcasting progression is a very difficult choice, since you are (ultimately) giving up one or more 9th level spells, and there are very few class abilities that are worth that. A 10th level fighter/10th level rogue is a viable character; a 10th level wizard/10th level cleric* is much less so. It isn't clear to me that a 10th level incarnist/10th level totemist is a terrible idea, though - that looks a lot more viable.
*Yes, I know all about the mystic theurge, but the mere existence of such a prestige class is tantamount to an admission that there is a problem.
All in all, I think I'd give fighters some actual class abilities instead of just bonus feats. The real problem is that most of the obvious sorts of skills a fighter might pick up are already covered by another class, and if you just say that they get Weapon Specialisation at 4th level, and so on, then you're not really improving the fighter - you're just restricting it. But some ideas:
- Perhaps fighters should get a better attack progression than anyone else. Maybe they get +4 BAB every 3 levels. If the fact that this means that they would get more attacks is a problem, then just make it an unnamed +1 bonus to all attacks every 3 levels or something - but I'm not sure that the idea of a fighter eventually getting a 5th and 6th attack at 20th level really terrifies me all that much (since we're going to be facing a -25 and a -30 on the last two attacks anyway).
- Fighters could possibly have a lesser incremental penalty for multiple attacks. Maybe at level 6 it's only -4 for each subsequent attack instead of -5, going down to -3 at 12th level and -2 at 18th.
- At levels 10 and 20, perhaps fighters could treat weapons as doing damage as if they were one (and then two) size categories larger.
- Fighters might be able to declare a certain number of attacks per day an automatic threat.
I dunno, these are just stream of consciousness ideas. If you keep the campaign down to about level 10, there are not really any serious problems. Doesn't usually end up a problem in most of my games, but that's due in large part to the fact that we all know the issues and generally avoid playing fighters - which is kind of sad, really.
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08-07-2006, 03:55 PM #22
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gazza666,
Almost all of these are actual feats or feat like abilities.
Reducing the penalties for multiple attacks is actually done via the weapon focus feat chain. Greater Weapon Focus gives a +2 to hit with that weapon and is fighter bonus feat. So it puts the fighter way ahead of others in attack bonuses.
Treating weapons as a size larger. Monkey grip allows using a weapon of a size larger as if it were properly sized (albeit with a –2 penalty) comes close on this one and it is also a fighter bonus feat.
Extra attacks. The two weapon fighting chain gets you there. Greater two weapon fighting allows 3 attacks with the off hand. Every feat in this chain are bonus fighter feats.
Improved critical increases the threat range of a specific weapon and is a fighter bonus feat. Power critical gives a +4 to confirm a threat – also a fighter bonus feat.
If you (as i the general you not you specifically) are not careful then the fighter ends up being a class designed for melee alone (see the automatic threat issue) and not a class than can go in many different paths. IMO the fihgter is one of the better designed classes as far as class abilites and level progression goes. What can be gained with those bonus feats is really balanced with other character classes and can at times become overwhelming if maximized properly.Duane Eggert
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08-07-2006, 04:29 PM #23
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Originally Posted by gazza666
In 3E, a good BAB improves at +1 per level, while for moderate it improves at +3/4 per level. By 20th level, a warrior-type has a mere +5 on standard attacks compared to a cleric or rogue. For a full attack, it amounts to a single extra attack at +20. Not trivial, but not befitting the difference in combat that should exist at that level.
Compare that to 2nd Ed. The equivalent in 2nd Ed would have the warriors advancing at +1 per level, priests at +2/3 per level, rogues at +1/2 per level, and wizards at +1/3 per level. By 20th level, that's a difference of +7, +10 and +14 respectively. In addition, only warriors got extra attacks at higher levels.
Thus, i think a high level warrior in 2nd Ed was a significantly better combatant compared to other classes, than a warrior-type in 3E. In 2nd Ed, there is a much more clear distinction in the abilities of the warriors. Warriors really got the shaft in 3E, imo.
I've been debating modifying my own campaign to go back to the 2nd Ed combat. I've always found it much smoother and faster to run too!
-Fizz
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08-07-2006, 04:32 PM #24
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I would have to go to the storage...but I was almost
positive the loss of a Constitution Point only applied
to making spells permanent and not to making magic
items? Or some such...
Having nothing to do with Birthright; but I know of
several examples published that specifically talk
about a certain so-and-so wizard making magic items on
a regular basis.
My thought had always been that this was a broken
spell in 2nd Edition, and I ignored the Con loss at
any rate as it was stated...instead saying it was a
temporary drain.
More related to Birthright, the elves already had the
Con penalty in 2nd Edition...so this would have made
sure they didn`t have a true edge in magical items I
would think!
Anthony Edwards
--- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> P190 2nd ed. PH "Each permanancy spell lowers the
> wizard`s Constitution by 1 point."
> -----------------------------
>
>
> Bugger, I had the right idea but the wrong spell.
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08-07-2006, 06:14 PM #25
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Are you folks kidding? Wizards are overpowered at high levels in 3e? I have yet to see a single 20th level wizard EVER defeat a comparable level fighter in combat, unless the wizard was already buffed/prepped for battle.
As you can't assume the wizzie is buffed beforehand, especially considering encounter distances often, the wizard gets one spell off... then is dead. So, that one spell better be a good 'un. Fly to remove the concern about melee is the one I usually see, but on occasion, I see a high level charm of some type, to try and defeat that poor will save.
Then the fighter, especially if an archer type, kills the wizzie anyways.
In BR, as the fighters lack magic weapons, or at least the same quantity as in a "normal" setting, I finally see the wizard stand on their own again, something they were able to do very effectively in 2e once they started hitting mid-levels.
Also, btw, in 2e, if using the player's option series, other classes could get multiple attacks. I believe it was called expertise, or some such.
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08-07-2006, 06:50 PM #26Originally Posted by epicsoul
As for the old argument of silenced Teleport vs. silenced spell of death and mayhem, I can relate to the previous posters. I'll just add MHO. What to choose all depends on the type of character. Regardless, they should still be able to deal with a ju-ju-less fighter any day, if they did their homework in time.-Harald
Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.
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08-07-2006, 08:19 PM #27
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I don`t know if anyone remembers a spell called
"Rainbow Shield" from 2nd Edition; but it allowed a
3rd or lower level spell to be placed in the shield
that would attack anyone who attacked the shielded
person.
Vampiric Touch was always nice. I would let a fighter
beat on me all day and suck the life out of him.
Anthony Edwards
--- The Swordgaunt <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> Then the fighter, especially if an archer type,
> kills the wizzie anyways.
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> The old maxim is true, in D&D as well as in the old
> AD&D (and most other systems, as well), "a prepared
> wizard is a terrible opponent". If a wizard of mid
> to high level gets locked in melee with a fighter of
> equal or higher level, well, then said wizard is a
> poor wizard, and thus deserving of every ounce of
> whoopas he gets. My two bits, anyway.
>
> As for the old argument of silenced Teleport vs.
> silenced spell of death and mayhem, I can relate to
> the previous posters. I`ll just add MHO. What to
> choose all depends on the type of character.
> Regardless, they should still be able to deal with a
> ju-ju-less fighter any day, if they did their
> homework in time.
>
>
>
> Birthright-l Archives:
> http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>
>
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08-07-2006, 08:51 PM #28
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In the spanish list of DnD 3e, some time ago people did a massive munchkin
tournament. Rules were if I remember correctly:
- only the 3 core books allowed
- 10 levels (if you were playing a monster race then adjusting ECL
accordingly)
- usual money for that level for equipment, magic items,...
There were some extra rules also about spells, enchants and equipment (for
example, I think you could cast spells on you only 24 hours before the
combat, so people didn´t enter with 1000 short buffs). 3 neutral referees
were ruling the combats and it was all played through a mail list so all the
list could see the combats (there were 2 lists, one for the players and
another for the people watching the combats). The referees posted in the
observers list the results of the actions and what was happening.
The tournament lasted 1 year more or less (40 people I think, I don´t
remember exactly). All non-caster players were killed in the first 2 rounds
of the tournament. The only non-caster that was capable of trying something
instead of getting instantly humiliated by a caster was a halfling rogue
with a looooot of hide skill and some seeds to plant trees in the fighting
arena to hide.
It was very fun to see munchkin people at their best, and the most important
thing we were teached: magic rules (in spells and in spell casting magic
items). Nothing compares to them.
Greetings!
Vicente
P.D.: I think there´s another spanish person in this list that was present
in that tournament, but not sure
P.D.: the winner of the tournament tried first playing with a giant ghostly
squid that the referees ruled as ilegal
----- Original Message -----
From: "The Swordgaunt" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Elves and things about them [19#3046]
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3046
> The Swordgaunt wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> Then the fighter, especially if an archer type, kills the wizzie anyways.
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> The old maxim is true, in D&D as well as in the old AD&D (and most other
> systems, as well), "a prepared wizard is a terrible opponent". If a wizard
> of mid to high level gets locked in melee with a fighter of equal or
> higher level, well, then said wizard is a poor wizard, and thus deserving
> of every ounce of whoopas he gets. My two bits, anyway.
>
> As for the old argument of silenced Teleport vs. silenced spell of death
> and mayhem, I can relate to the previous posters. I`ll just add MHO. What
> to choose all depends on the type of character. Regardless, they should
> still be able to deal with a ju-ju-less fighter any day, if they did their
> homework in time.
>
>
>
> Birthright-l Archives:
> http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
>
>
>
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08-07-2006, 09:12 PM #29
Apologies
I notice that the quote in my post (#26) has been changed. This was not intentionally, it wasn't even me. I'm using a computer at work, and it's in the common room, so any of my colleages have access to it. And up until now, it was set to remember my ID when I enter the forum.
Now, I'll go and find out who of them plays BR, or D&D, then have a word with them 'bout netiquette.
Again, sorry.-Harald
Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.
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08-07-2006, 09:46 PM #30
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Reply to my own post? yeah...
You could place a 4th or lower level spell in Rainbow
Shield...and the shield held the spell and visited the
attack on anyone that hit you for the duration.
Ahhh...walking through an orc horde was good in those
days!
Anthony Edwards
--- Anthony Edwards <dalor_darden@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> I don`t know if anyone remembers a spell called
> "Rainbow Shield" from 2nd Edition; but it allowed a
> 3rd or lower level spell to be placed in the shield
> that would attack anyone who attacked the shielded
> person.
>
> Vampiric Touch was always nice. I would let a
> fighter
> beat on me all day and suck the life out of him.
>
>
> Anthony Edwards
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