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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Elves and things about them

    I'm setting up a new thread to cover the information that the Realm Spells Saving Throws thread has gone to.

    Hopefully this should make the thread smaller and more accurate than what the last one was becoming.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    ***All day and it being wasted is better than all day tied up a prisoner. I`m not a power gamer, and much prefer the survival of my wizard over his ability to outright destroy everything in his path.***
    The point is that you're making a choice to waste a slot. That's a cost. What if you find yourself in a situation where one more Chain Lightning spell would rule the day, and you are stuck with a Silent Teleport?

    Realistically, how bad is it going to be if you get tied up and gagged anyway? You're clearly looking at some sort of adventure that will involve an escape; I'd say that a DM that planned that sort of adventure is going to be a bit miffed if you just derail it by teleporting away.

    A better example would be keeping a Silent Dispel Magic handy for battles where you get hit with a Silence spell. And that's the situation where a rod of metamagic will serve just as well.

    In a low magic or rare magic campaign, every wizard won't have access to these items;
    That's the whole point though, isn't it? Take the item creation feat instead of the metamagic feat, and you can make them yourself (although in the case of a metamagic rod you need help from someone that does have the feat, of course).

    ***The rest of what you say I have no qualms with. I
    only assert that wizards SHOULD make use of the
    various feats. I know my wizard with his wand of
    Maximized Magic Missles from a 9th level caster will
    knock the snot out of most Sorcerers...or even a
    higher level character with a Maximized Fireball Wand.
    But just my opinion.***
    Ugh. The power gamer in me can't resist pointing out that a Wand of Maximised Magic Missiles is a horrible waste; you can get 2 Wands of Lightning Bolts for less cost. And the ruleslawyer in me notes that a Wand of Maximised Fireball is illegal; a wand is limited to only 4th level spells (a Staff of Maximised Fireballs would work, though).

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    Yes they are currently on "good" terms with the dwarves (well they leave each other alone - the dwarves take the underground and leave the surface to the elves).
    Surely they are on no better terms with dwarves than humans; they get the social penalties against dwarves as well (according to chapter 1, that is). Perhaps they're not actively at war, but then again that's probably true of humans as well, is it not?

  4. #4
    One observation: in the other thread (which talks about the elves vs human wars) it is observed that the elves suffered because the humans had cleared lots of their forest away.

    While I certainly appreciate that the long term consequences of less forests are bad for elves, the actual tactical implications are possibly beneficial, according to the War Cards rules. Most elven units are archers to some degree or another, and the War Cards rules penalise archery in forest battles.

    Granted there are strategic benefits to the elves (as they don't have to pay extra movement points to cross the forested territory), but if I were actually in control of the elven armies I suspect I would try to get the best of both worlds - use strategic movement to engage in forested provinces that had a minor terrain type of "open", and then force engagement in open terrain. Fighting in forest terrain hurts elves more than it helps them.

    Just an observation. I'm not sure whether this is a good or bad idea, but perhaps units with Scout training should have a lesser penalty to archery in mass combat (the idea being that they know where all the best ambush spots are).

  5. #5
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    Answers in line below.***

    --- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    >
    >
    > The point is that you`re making a choice to waste a
    > slot. That`s a cost. What if you find yourself in a
    > situation where one more Chain Lightning spell would
    > rule the day, and you are stuck with a Silent
    > Teleport?

    ***Then I teleport away and fight another day. You
    say it is wasting a slot...but using your "what if"
    theory...WHAT IF the only way your character survives
    is having that teleport eh? "Dangerous it is when
    trying to tell the future young Skywalker." Or some
    such...***

    >
    > Realistically, how bad is it going to be if you get
    > tied up and gagged anyway? You`re clearly looking at
    > some sort of adventure that will involve an escape;
    > I`d say that a DM that planned that sort of
    > adventure is going to be a bit miffed if you just
    > derail it by teleporting away.

    ***Then he can be miffed. My character has free will,
    and a DM that isn`t prepared to deal with that isn`t
    worth his salt. I can`t stand a rail-roading DM that
    has no ability to deal with change. Nor can I play a
    character that thinks the Gods are going to be so
    protective of his life!***

    >
    > A better example would be keeping a Silent Dispel
    > Magic handy for battles where you get hit with a
    > Silence spell. And that`s the situation where a rod
    > of metamagic will serve just as well.

    ***Good Item...but again not always available.***

    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    >
    > In a low magic or rare magic campaign, every wizard
    > won`t have access to these items;
    >
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    > That`s the whole point though, isn`t it? Take the
    > item creation feat instead of the metamagic feat,
    > and you can make them yourself (although in the case
    > of a metamagic rod you need help from someone that
    > does have the feat, of course).

    ***And again, wizards in Cerilia are reclusive old
    coots...seldom prone to helping each other with much
    at all. Even an apprentice is going to get the bare
    minimum from his master.***

    >
    >
    > Ugh. The power gamer in me can`t resist pointing out
    > that a Wand of Maximised Magic Missiles is a
    > horrible waste; you can get 2 Wands of Lightning
    > Bolts for less cost. And the ruleslawyer in me notes
    > that a Wand of Maximised Fireball is illegal; a wand
    > is limited to only 4th level spells (a Staff of
    > Maximised Fireballs would work, though).

    ***Semantics. The effect is better with the wand of
    magic missles. Always going to hit for 25 damage,
    where a wand of lightning bolts will average about the
    same and still allow a saving throw that would reduce
    the damage to about 15 pts. Especially true when you
    hit an enemy wizard for 25 pts since that will be
    nearly half his HP or more.

    As for the Wand of Maximized Fireballs...I was on a
    nigh unstoppable blabber with my mouth and had little
    thought about it...so a staff it is! LOL***


    Anthony Edwards


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  6. #6
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:27 PM 8/5/2006, gazza666 wrote:

    >Granted there are strategic benefits to the elves (as they don`t
    >have to pay extra movement points to cross the forested territory),
    >but if I were actually in control of the elven armies I suspect I
    >would try to get the best of both worlds - use strategic movement to
    >engage in forested provinces that had a minor terrain type of
    >"open", and then force engagement in open terrain. Fighting in
    >forest terrain hurts elves more than it helps them.

    "Special: Elves ignore all the negative effects of forested terrain."

    Just a suggestion.

    Gary

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    ***Then I teleport away and fight another day. You say it is wasting a slot...but using your "what if" theory...WHAT IF the only way your character survives is having that teleport eh?
    Great, we agree. So, then the question becomes one of probabilities. On average, I would say that I am more likely to find a use for Chain Lightning/Disintegrate/whatever on any given adventuring day than I am to need a Silent Teleport spell.

    Then he can be miffed. My character has free will, and a DM that isn`t prepared to deal with that isn`t worth his salt.
    Oh, but that's the point. He will deal with it. There'll be a Dimension Lock effect or some sort, and you'll still be stuffed.

    My point is this: the number of situations that a Silent Teleport is useful do not come up often enough to justify wasting a precious prepared spell slot on. This is the case with Still spell as well. They are great for sorcerers, because there's no opportunity cost for them - but since a wizard has to predict that he will need them at some point during the day, they are much less useful.

    Good Item...but again not always available.
    Here again - if you have Craft Rod, you can make sure it is available.

    And again, wizards in Cerilia are reclusive old coots...seldom prone to helping each other with much at all. Even an apprentice is going to get the bare minimum from his master.
    Doesn't have to be another wizard. If you have a PC sorcerer in the party with the Silent Spell feat, he'll do fine. If you don't, get an appropriate cohort or something. If all else fails, pay someone for their time.

    Semantics. The effect is better with the wand of magic missles. Always going to hit for 25 damage, where a wand of lightning bolts will average about the same and still allow a saving throw that would reduce the damage to about 15 pts.
    You are ignoring the fact that a lightning bolt can strike multiple targets, as well as the fact that it's less than half the price.

    I specifically chose lightning bolt over fireball because with the latter it is difficult to not hit multiple targets (including friends), whereas you can generally aim a lightning bolt so that it will hit one guy in a crowd if you must, but you can often tag a couple of his buddies as well.

    Of course, if you're up against rogues or monks (with evasion), or any sort of lightning resistant creature, then a lightning bolt is of no use - on the other hand, a Shield spell completely blocks Magic Missile as well, and it's not an uncommon target for Spell Immunity. I'd say those cancel, and I'd still prefer the lightning bolt wands or just a plain Wand of Magic Missile @9th. The plain one averages 17.5 damage, so for four times the price you're only getting an extra 7.5 damage per charge.

  8. #8
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    I`ve learned a lesson in this: never argue with a
    Munchkin when game mechanics are involved! LOL

    I hope you could learn however, that not all gamers go
    for the overpowering or the "sure thing" that you are
    proposing. I`m aware (as I`ve been playing wizards
    for going on three decades now) that a lightning bolt
    can hit more than one target...

    What I am also aware of is that you are talking
    specifics and I`m talking generality. Not every
    single day of a wizards life is he going to only have
    attack and defense spells memorized...you never know
    what may happen on a given day; or what situation may
    arise. If you are only prepared for combat, then what
    happens when something else happens that is of dire
    import and you don`t have time to memorize new spells
    later on? He may be spying one day...and a vocal
    spell is the last thing he wants. Perhaps he will be
    doing battle against clerics one day...he may not know
    it...but it can happen if he is constantly at odds
    against them. A Silence spell will surely ruin your
    day...unless you can cast spells without vocal
    components. What if you are traveling with friends in
    a new land...and a disease takes your voice? Ever had
    a disease as a character?

    So in essence...all my G.I. Joes don`t come in the
    same box with the same weapons.


    Anthony Edwards

    P.S.- we DON`T agree; as you try to turn my general
    statements and theory into fact for your own cause.
    Doesn`t work with me. ;-)

    --- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > ***Then I teleport away and fight another day. You
    > say it is wasting a slot...but using your "what if"
    > theory...WHAT IF the only way your character
    > survives is having that teleport eh?
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > Great, we agree. So, then the question becomes one
    > of probabilities. On average, I would say that I am
    > more likely to find a use for Chain
    > Lightning/Disintegrate/whatever on any given
    > adventuring day than I am to need a Silent Teleport
    > spell.
    >
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > Then he can be miffed. My character has free will,
    > and a DM that isn`t prepared to deal with that isn`t
    > worth his salt.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > Oh, but that`s the point. He will deal with it.
    > There`ll be a Dimension Lock effect or some sort,
    > and you`ll still be stuffed.
    >
    > My point is this: the number of situations that a
    > Silent Teleport is useful do not come up often
    > enough to justify wasting a precious prepared spell
    > slot on. This is the case with Still spell as well.
    > They are great for sorcerers, because there`s no
    > opportunity cost for them - but since a wizard has
    > to predict that he will need them at some point
    > during the day, they are much less useful.
    >
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > Good Item...but again not always available.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > Here again - if you have Craft Rod, you can make
    > sure it is available.
    >
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > And again, wizards in Cerilia are reclusive old
    > coots...seldom prone to helping each other with much
    > at all. Even an apprentice is going to get the bare
    > minimum from his master.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > Doesn`t have to be another wizard. If you have a PC
    > sorcerer in the party with the Silent Spell feat,
    > he`ll do fine. If you don`t, get an appropriate
    > cohort or something. If all else fails, pay someone
    > for their time.
    >
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > Semantics. The effect is better with the wand of
    > magic missles. Always going to hit for 25 damage,
    > where a wand of lightning bolts will average about
    > the same and still allow a saving throw that would
    > reduce the damage to about 15 pts.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > You are ignoring the fact that a lightning bolt can
    > strike multiple targets, as well as the fact that
    > it`s less than half the price.
    >
    > I specifically chose lightning bolt over fireball
    > because with the latter it is difficult to not hit
    > multiple targets (including friends), whereas you
    > can generally aim a lightning bolt so that it will
    > hit one guy in a crowd if you must, but you can
    > often tag a couple of his buddies as well.
    >
    > Of course, if you`re up against rogues or monks
    > (with evasion), or any sort of lightning resistant
    > creature, then a lightning bolt is of no use - on
    > the other hand, a Shield spell completely blocks
    > Magic Missile as well, and it`s not an uncommon
    > target for Spell Immunity. I`d say those cancel, and
    > I`d still prefer the lightning bolt wands or just a
    > plain Wand of Magic Missile @9th. The plain one
    > averages 17.5 damage, so for four times the price
    > you`re only getting an extra 7.5 damage per charge.

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    I`ve learned a lesson in this: never argue with a
    Munchkin when game mechanics are involved! LOL
    I've got no problem with "power gamer", but I'm not a Munchkin. I don't cheat; that's the essential distinction.

    I hope you could learn however, that not all gamers go for the overpowering or the "sure thing" that you are proposing.
    If you want to talk about roleplaying, then fine - I'm all for that. But if you're talking about what the best things to use your bonus feats on are, then we're in the domain of powergaming, are we not?

    Not only am I aware that what I'm saying is not a sure thing, but I even included examples where it was inferior. It's just that, on balance, you have a limited number of funds to play with.

    A Wand of Maximised Magic Missile is what I call a "bad powergamer" item. It's the sort of thing someone would have because they thought it was powerful - when in actual fact, it isn't. You can find bad powergamers everywhere - they're the types who take a level of monk, paladin, and duellist to try and maximise their sorcerer's capabilities, not realising that giving up 3 spellcaster levels was actually a sub-optimal choice.

    Now, if you happen to find such an item rather than buy or make it, that's different.

    What I am also aware of is that you are talking specifics and I`m talking generality.
    See, for me it looks like the other way around. I'm saying that generally it is better not to waste a prepared spell slot on something that will probably never be needed, while you're coming up with specific examples where it might.

    I freely acknowledge that if you happen to find yourself tied up and gagged then having a Silent Teleport is nice to get you out of the jam. It's just that I don't find, in general, that PCs tend to be in this situation. On the other hand, they're quite likely to find a use for an extra Disintegrate or Greater Dispel Magic spell.

    Not every single day of a wizards life is he going to only have attack and defense spells memorized...
    I never said he would. Beyond the first few levels, I would recommend that all wizards have a decent escape spell memorised, as well as a utility spell or two. For example, I certainly would never take the position that a wizard should avoid memorising Teleport in order to squeeze in another Cone of Cold.

    you never know what may happen on a given day; or what situation may
    arise.
    I agree wholeheartedly; it is the basis of my point. Because you cannot forsee what will happen to you on a given day, you are best off preparing the spells that are most likely to be useful rather than those that have a very small chance of being useful.

    If you are only prepared for combat, then what happens when something else happens that is of dire import and you don`t have time to memorize new spells later on?
    You use scrolls?

    He may be spying one day...and a vocal spell is the last thing he wants.
    If he's under 24x7 observation such that he can't risk speaking, then it's worth pointing out that a Spellcraft check will still rumble him.

    Perhaps he will be doing battle against clerics one day...he may not know
    it...but it can happen if he is constantly at odds against them. A Silence spell will surely ruin your day...unless you can cast spells without vocal
    components.
    Sure - but that's what the old Rod is for. Besides, a Silent Dispel Magic or (better yet) a custom spell that specifically destroys silence fields is a better option (there may well exist such a spell already).

    What if you are traveling with friends in a new land...and a disease takes your voice? Ever had a disease as a character?
    For the few moments it takes to get the Remove Disease scroll out, yes.

    And frankly, that sort of argument is beginning to sound desperate.

    I still maintain: wizards taking Silent Spell get much less out of it than a sorcerer does. A rod of metamagic is a core item in the DMG; of course your DM may forbid access to it, but a DM can outright forbid access to the Silent Spell feat as well - in a normal game, such items are available.

    It can be argued that Birthright does not qualify as a "normal game" under this definition, of course. If the "magic rarity" becomes the standard rule such that magic items become rare and/or prohibitively expensive to make, then you might as well use the bonus feats for something (it's still a better option than Empower or Maximise, because you can't research a spell that has no components - it has to have V or S).

    And pointing out that it is a suboptimal choice does not equate to "cookie cutter" characters that all look the same. Powergamers do not end up with identical characters; there are multiple routes to power in D&D. The derision that powergamers suffer from non-powergamers is something I'm used to and not particularly bothered by, because it's all based on completely ridiculous assumptions. The desire to play a powerful character does not mean that such a character is divorced of roleplaying concerns. Conan, Gandalf, Aragorn, Fafhrd, Elric - all of these are powerful characters from fantasy fiction. A powergamer merely wants to play a powerful character; we'd like our characters to be spoken of in the campaign world with the same sense of admiration or infamy that the fictional characters inspire in their own.

    And we like to kill orcs.

  10. #10
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    I had considered writing more and debating with you;
    but it seems to me others attempt to debase the
    standing of another in their arguments when they
    become heated...why is that?

    I`m nothing if not confident in my position...and in
    no way am I ever desperate.

    To address one part of your reply, as it is connected
    to your attempt to make me seem weak in debate:

    Do your parties always contain the optimum balance of
    characters? Is every party you have been in have a
    sorcerer to help make your rod of silence...or a
    cleric that will be able to remove disease? Have you
    ever advanced to a point in a campaign (that ever so
    elusive game where players don`t simply crawl around
    and kill things in dungeons) that involves the party
    members being alone at times? Perhaps the Wizard is
    traveling in Vosgaard and contracted the disease; his
    friend was killed and there are no clerics willing to
    heal him...endless possibilities...

    Adaptability. The thing you put forth as the strength
    of the Sorcerer is actually the hallmark of the
    Wizard. Wizards are the ones that are supposed to be
    able to prepare for ANY situation...and taking a range
    of feats making a wizard adaptable is exactly what I`m
    talking about.

    If you can`t see that...or simply refuse to for the
    sake of argument I can accept that. But please, don`t
    attack my ability to debate as a method of proving
    your point. In politics its called a smear campaign;
    and is actually the sign that the one smearing is the
    weaker of the two parties.


    Anthony Edwards

    --- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > What if you are traveling with friends in a new
    > land...and a disease takes your voice? Ever had a
    > disease as a character?
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > For the few moments it takes to get the Remove
    > Disease scroll out, yes.
    >
    > And frankly, that sort of argument is beginning to
    > sound desperate.

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