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  1. #1
    Member Starmage21's Avatar
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    Pikemen w/ Shield Training?!

    Seems mutually exclusive kind of deal. Large 2-handed weapons AND large shields?!


    Seems like they shouldnt be able to go together, but shield training says foot units only, which is what Pikemen are.

    Im extremly tempted to houserule, but whats the "official" answer?
    /me goes to check 2nd edition Birthright rules.
    Peace is a lie,
    There is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Starmage21
    Seems mutually exclusive kind of deal. Large 2-handed weapons AND large shields?!


    Seems like they shouldnt be able to go together, but shield training says foot units only, which is what Pikemen are.

    Im extremly tempted to houserule, but whats the "official" answer?
    /me goes to check 2nd edition Birthright rules.
    Heh, once again we rear our ugly heads.

    anyway, the thing I see about this is that only elves or ELITE trained troopers could pull this combo off. As such, I figure it's an extremly specializied ability. Obviously they don't use both at once, but rather trained in such a way as to be able to act to incoming archer volleys by getting the shields (most likely strapped to their backs) foward to deflect the arrows (+4 def vs.), otherwise they use their pikes against whatever they face in melee.

  3. #3
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    Depends what kind of shield we're talking about. In a Greek phalanx, troops carried both a long pike and shield. In fact that's how the infantry got their name, hoplites, for the round shield known as a hoplon.

    So, it's possible.

    -Fizz

  4. #4
    Member Starmage21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz
    Depends what kind of shield we're talking about. In a Greek phalanx, troops carried both a long pike and shield. In fact that's how the infantry got their name, hoplites, for the round shield known as a hoplon.

    So, it's possible.

    -Fizz
    The shield training desription details large shields, and Im assuming it refers to something similar to the Roman Tortoise formation where they wall their shields and create a roof using their Scutums.
    Peace is a lie,
    There is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    You cannot use a 2 handed weapon and a large shield at the same time. So no, a pikeman unit would not be able to take that training.

    Even though they could use it with the simple weapon - they would essentialy lose their unit benefit of setting for a charge wince their weapon would have no reach.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starmage21
    /me goes to check 2nd edition Birthright rules.
    Book of Regency is the where unit training and imporvement was brought up. It did not go into the detail that the BRCS has though (mostly due to the combat system used).
    Duane Eggert

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    You cannot use a 2 handed weapon and a large shield at the same time. So no, a pikeman unit would not be able to take that training.

    Even though they could use it with the simple weapon - they would essentialy lose their unit benefit of setting for a charge wince their weapon would have no reach.
    Which was what I said, basically. Which makes sense. It's not as if they'd get swarmed with arrows while preparing for a charge from the cavalry

  8. #8
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    You can use a two-handed weapon and a shield at the
    same time. The feat "Monkey Grip" (should be named
    something else) allows the use of a two-handed weapon
    in one hand.

    In real life, the Greeks (as well as Macedonians using
    a much longer pike called a Sarissa (sp?) and many
    other successor states like the Selucid (sp?) Empire)
    had shield bearing pikemen.

    The feat mentioned above incurs a -2 penalty to hit (I
    think); but then when you are fighting in massed melee
    with pikes, there really is no "target" by individual
    pikemen. The true intent is to form a "perfect row of
    pike points" with which you simply push against an
    enemy until your pikes begin to inflict damage against
    the enemy. Opposition from enemy pikes usually
    resulted in a "pushing" contest until one unit broke.

    For the sake of D&D, I`d say Monkey Grip is what the
    unit could use and still use a shield. A tower shield
    would get in the way too much (OUCH...a -4 to hit with
    tower shield and Monkey Grip); but then again, the
    intent isn`t to hit an individual...a pikeman just
    aims at the enemy mass in front of him.

    As for setting against a charge, pikemen were idiots
    if they tried to hold their pike on their own and hit
    a charging anyone...made the weapon too unreliable.
    Instead, a bronze or brass butt-spike was slammed into
    the ground and the charging fool was allowed to impale
    himself on any number of pikes from the square.

    To counter a pike formation, the best idea is a unit
    of heavy swordsmen (the Swabians were famous for
    obliterating even the fabled Swiss Pikemen) who use
    heavy two-handed swords to chop apart the pikes and
    wade into the lightly armored enemy.

    Pikes are good though! I like pikes. :-)


    Anthony Edwards


    --- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > You cannot use a 2 handed weapon and a large shield
    > at the same time. So no, a pikeman unit would not
    > be able to take that training.
    >
    > Even though they could use it with the simple weapon
    > - they would essentialy lose their unit benefit of
    > setting for a charge wince their weapon would have
    > no reach.

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  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    You can use a two-handed weapon and a shield at the
    same time. The feat "Monkey Grip" (should be named
    something else) allows the use of a two-handed weapon
    in one hand.
    No longer.

    The feat was redone in 3.5 (pg 103 of Complete Warrior) to allow you to use a weapons sized one category larger as if it was the same weapon only sized one size smaller.

    Basically in 3.5 weapons come in various sizes that are based on the size of the wielder; tiny, small, medium, large, etc.

    Weapons are classified by the effort it takes to use them.

    from the SRD:

    Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

    Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.

    An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

    One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

    Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

    Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

    A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

    Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
    The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #10
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    So with monkey grip I can use a giant sized bastard
    sword one handed even though it does about the same
    damage as a greatsword?

    But I can`t hold a normal pike in one hand?

    Hogwash.


    Anthony Edwards

    --- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net
    > message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    >
    http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3039
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    >
    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    You can use a two-handed weapon and a
    > shield at the
    > same time. The feat "Monkey Grip" (should be named
    > something else) allows the use of a two-handed
    > weapon
    > in one hand.
    >
    > No longer.
    >
    > The feat was redone in 3.5 (pg 103 of Complete
    > Warrior) to allow you to use a weapons sized one
    > category larger as if it was the same weapon only
    > sized one size smaller.
    >
    > Basically in 3.5 weapons come in various sizes that
    > are based on the size of the wielder; tiny, small,
    > medium, large, etc.
    >
    > Weapons are classified by the effort it takes to use
    > them.
    >
    > from the SRD:
    >
    > Light,
    > One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee
    > Weapons:
    This
    > designation is a measure of how much effort it takes
    > to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a
    > melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the
    > weapon’s size category, is considered a light
    > weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed
    > weapon.

    >
    > Light:
    >
    A light weapon is
    > easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed
    > weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A
    > light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s
    > Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee
    > attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the
    > primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength
    > bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands
    > to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on
    > damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the
    > weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand
    > only.

    >
    > An unarmed
    > strike is always considered a light
    > weapon.

    >
    > One-Handed:
    >
    A one-handed weapon
    > can be used in either the primary hand or the off
    > hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage
    > rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if
    > it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her
    > Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a
    > one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during
    > melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s
    > Strength bonus to damage rolls.

    >
    > Two-Handed:
    >
    Two hands are required
    > to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply
    > 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage
    > rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
    >

    >
    >

    > Weapon
    > Size:
    Every weapon has
    > a size category. This designation indicates the size
    > of the creature for which the weapon was
    > designed.

    >
    > A weapon’s
    > size category isn’t the same as its size as an
    > object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed
    > to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a
    > light weapon is an object two size categories
    > smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an
    > object one size category smaller than the wielder,
    > and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same
    > size category as the wielder.

    >
    > Inappropriately Sized
    > Weapons:
    A creature
    > can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t
    > properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty
    > applies on attack rolls for each size category of
    > difference between the size of its intended wielder
    > and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature
    > isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency
    > penalty also applies.

    > The measure
    > of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether
    > the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or
    > two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is
    > altered by one step for each size category of
    > difference between the wielder’s size and the size
    > of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
    > If a weapon’s designation would be changed to
    > something other than light, one-handed, or
    > two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t
    > wield the weapon at all.

    >
    >
    >

    >
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