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Thread: Realm Spell Saving Throws
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07-27-2006, 08:53 PM #31
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Originally Posted by dalor
IIRC in general Realm Spells weren't listed for the NPCs.
Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to say
that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
and aid their people.
You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
during the Great War.
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07-27-2006, 10:11 PM #32
The Ruler of Tuarhievel? Who in particular? If you mean the lovely niece of the Mhor, whom I consider one of the setting's greatest stories along with her love and their daughter in her womb, well, the Player's Secrets book lists her as both a Ranger and without any Realm Spells, as far as I can see. Are you sure you don't refer to material that is non-canon? As for her love, I also don't remember him having such a listing of spells...
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07-28-2006, 01:16 AM #33
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Replies in line below
--- "Birthright.net Message Boards"
<brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> Could you help me out here and point me to where the
> realm spells that these PCs have are listed
***The material I quoted was from the game
"Birthright: the Gorgon`s Alliance"***
>
> IIRC in general Realm Spells weren`t listed for the
> NPCs.
>
> Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to
> say
> that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
> soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
> and aid their people.
>
> This is pretty much wrong, IMO. Using Great Heart
> as a descriptive source for elves and death it seems
> really, really wrong for elves to come back from the
> dead. In 2nd ed elves couldn`t even be raised in
> normal D&D and resurrection was still more difficult
> for them.
***Could you please explain to me what happens to the
Sidhe elves when they die? I may have missed it. If
they simply die and cease to be; what happens to their
animating force...their spirit? And I didn`t say come
back from the dead...they are still dead of they are
in an undead unit; but just maybe they are spirits
without bodies...not shambling mounds of wrecked
flesh.***
>
> You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
> necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
> magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
> during the Great War.
>
> Using magic of deadly effect is not the same as
> using Death Magic.
So exactly what magic could they use to "deadly
effect" if they had no death magic, no fireballs, no
summoning spells? What...did they charm whole armies
and make them fight each other? Or was it perhaps
that they brought death by plague to whole armies, or
summoned the creatures of the forest to battle against
humanity that would despoil the creatures native
habitat...or maybe even bring frigid ice to the camps
of the humans and freeze them to death by conjuring
horrible winter weather.
I`m rather fed up with the notion that Cerilian Elves
are so restricted in their magic. An overzealous
notion of them being extreme tree huggers is about to
wear me out. Elves DO love nature...but they aren`t
so bound in their restrictions that they aren`t able
to defend it. If you like, they don`t summon dead
elves, they have a spell instead that summons nature
spirits that have the same effect.
Break out of the box and imagine things that you
haven`t already read. By seeing the fact that the
folks that made Birthright approved the use of Death
Plague by an Elven monarch...its good enough for me.
Heck...if you really wanna know...ask Rich Baker.
Nevermind that...I`ll ask him.
Anthony Edwards
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07-28-2006, 01:17 AM #34
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Originally Posted by RaspK_FOGDuane Eggert
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07-28-2006, 01:40 AM #35
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Originally Posted by irdeggman
You're asking me to believe that centuries of game time pass, so that standard elves would start to see aging restrictions.
Generational games for humans? Sure. But in the worst possible case, a standard elven wizard is 170 years old at 1st level. They don't hit venerable until 350 - 180 years, minimum, have to pass before a standard elf is in any danger of old age. (Note that aging gives wizards more bonuses than penalties).
Actually I doubt any PC of any race is ever likely to die of old age. Epic levels provide numerous means to extend your lifespan indefinitely. The rules encourage regents to adventure often; if we assume that this means once per six months, then a standard rate of advancement would be 1 level per 2 years - which means you hit level 21 after 40 years. Only half-orcs would be in any possible danger of not surviving that long. And I think only 2 adventures per year is, if anything, underestimating the advancement rate of many campaigns.
There is no standard human language in the setting there are in fact very fractional languages. So since an elve can use his Int bonus to gain any additional language that puts him at a huge advantage when compared to other races that get to choose a cultural one (what that was to refer to was the culture closest to the character's starting point).
But there are a number of Prestige Classes that favor elves and multiclassing with spellcasters.
In any case, the PDF advises against using standard prestige classes - are you referring to some Birthright specific classes that haven't been published yet?
Check my other post about how the school restrictions affect the other races and then revisit your argument
I find this whole section to be a bit difficult to take. "Anuireans view enchantments as dishonourable" - yes, I can see that, since your average Anuirean sees enchantment spells cast all the time in this "rare magic" world. Are there really even enough Anuirean wizards to have established this sort of consensus?
Statements such as "race X doesn't like A and B schools and shuns C" implies that there is a long tradition of magic so that the race as a whole is well educated on what magic does, so that they have formed an opinion (or perhaps even passed laws). Yet with the exception of elves, only scions can even wield most of the magic that is disfavoured or shunned - it is hard to understand how a racial consensus could be reached for something so rare, or are scions really quite common?
Now, I can see that you could say instead, "Anuireans are honourable as a racial trait", and that would include their wizards, who might indeed shun certain spells as dishonourable. However - and this is the crucial point - this would be on a spell-by-spell basis rather than a school-by-school basis. Is it honourable, for example, to re-animate your fallen opponent's corpse? Probably not - but since Anuireans don't have a problem with necromancy, it looks like it's OK.
That is what a DM is supposed to do - handle and interpret things. If every thing was a specific mechanic then all DMS would have to rely on house-rules almost all of the time instead of supply "mechanics" where they are purposfully left for them to develop.
Again the social role-playing is up to the DM and that is what the "rules" support.
Actual that is a variant and was done at the request of the boards to accomodate the elven closeness to nature. The spells were voted on and chosen by the masses. Personnally I didn't think it was necessary but bowed to the public pressure.
That is something that only detailed reading will help you with.
Try reading Bloodspawn (a free download from WoitC) to help grasp some of the "history" of the elves. It is free, so there can't be any reason, except for being lazy, with not trying to get it.
I will say that I am not at all clear why it should be necessary to read multiple books from different sites merely to play a fairly common character class of one of the standard races.
The restriction for spells is specific to arcane spells and not to divine ones. The notes on favored, disfavored and shunned schools is located under "Arcane Magic" in Ch 3.
Is it because arcane magic is more powerful? But bards are arcane casters too - it's hard to argue that any bard spell measures up against Miracle.
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07-28-2006, 02:37 AM #36
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Hmmm... this is the same debate we have had before. Or at least, very similar.
One of the problems here is the fact that some people need to have that game balance, and some don't, instead buying into the setting more. The BRCS tries to walk a line somewhere in the middle, perhaps favouring the setting material more - an attempt to carry over the 2e spirit.
I for one, applaud that. I could care less about game balance, personally. I worry when someone states that due to game balance, there are certain classes that won't be played... such as an elf wizard, according to the originator of this topic.
Yet my very last campaign, somebody played an elf wizard... and was, by far, the most powerful character in the campaign (even though she rolled horrible stats!!!). She played the full elven wizard too, with the restrictions inherent to the rules... as a specialist. What was her school? Enchantment. She then chose Necromancy and Evocation as her opposed schools.
Interestingly, you can basically make any of the racial preferences for magic in Ch. 3 as a specialist. Even the Brecht, where you choose their 2 disfavoured schools as their opposed schools.
Now... the extra spell a day per level seems like a substantial game balance bonus, I suppose. Yet the player was just as ready to play as a "generalist" and obey the restrictions on elves, as long as a few spells would be okay. Which I went over, spell by spell.
All I could come up with for necromancy was Cause Fear, Fear, Eyebite and Symbol of Fear, mainly because you could make an argument that these are almost enchantments. All the rest have to do with undead, or the life force somehow. And the player wouldn't have any of that for her character.
So, she would have shunned a school, because of a role-playing effect. Note that there are no rules that state that elves can't learn these spells. Rules don't govern role-playing effects. Heck, if you play a Sidhe deep in Anuire, and use necromancy, nobody will chase you most likely. But, show your face in Tuarhievel or Sielwode, and you may just be put to death... or at the very least, not allowed in.
sidenote: Note one thing about the BR setting, though. Role-playing effects seem to seep in - find yourself in an elven nation and you are human, you may just be put to death for your race - by a supposed good race. More interesting, the way the politics are set up, "good" temples may end up going into holy wars with each other. And have historically.
I may be digressing here, but game balance seems to be a moot point, isn't it? There is nothing RESTRICTING an elf from learning necromancy in the rules, just a role-playing effect that the player chooses to face if they break that taboo. That's the player's choice - just like a player-character in a normal AD&D setting faces racism and death if they play a drow. Heck, in BR, a Sidhe faces the same concern in several nations... why compound their sorrows by pissing off their own people.
And, if game balance is an issue, insist on specialists. That is built into the rules too.
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07-28-2006, 02:50 AM #37
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Why has Dalor posted the exact same thing 3 times now?
No, 3 more after my post. All exactly the same. What's with the spam?
-FizzLast edited by Fizz; 07-28-2006 at 03:41 AM.
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07-28-2006, 03:21 AM #38
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Originally Posted by epicsoul
To a power gamer, it's not so much about the absolute power as it is about the relative power. Clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, etc: these are pretty much exactly as they are in the PH. But sorcerers, bards, and wizards are depowered, which makes them less attractive.
(snip!)
Interestingly, you can basically make any of the racial preferences for magic in Ch. 3 as a specialist. Even the Brecht, where you choose their 2 disfavoured schools as their opposed schools.
In Birthright, all wizards must specialise. An elven wizard must select necromancy as one of his banned schools, and must select one of the other two from evocation and conjuration; no elven wizard may specialise in evocation, conjuration, or necromancy without becoming an outcast.
And obviously there would be similar rules for all the other races. That's a rule I could get behind 100% - it's mechanically sound, it avoids any fuzziness about what is or is not allowed, and it seems to achieve much the same goal as the current rules. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate to sorcerers or bards, neither of whom can be specialists. I would be inclined to just say that bards have no restrictions, but sorcerers present an issue; if you say that sorcerers do not have to obey these restrictions, then there's going to be a lot of sorcerers (especially elves, who get a Cha bonus) instead of wizards.
All I could come up with for necromancy was Cause Fear, Fear, Eyebite and Symbol of Fear, mainly because you could make an argument that these are almost enchantments.
All the rest have to do with undead, or the life force somehow. And the player wouldn't have any of that for her character.
There is nothing RESTRICTING an elf from learning necromancy in the rules, just a role-playing effect that the player chooses to face if they break that taboo.
why compound their sorrows by pissing off their own people.
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07-28-2006, 06:29 AM #39
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Originally Posted by Fizz
ArjanTe audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
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07-28-2006, 09:33 AM #40
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Originally Posted by gazza666
From the SRD
Arcane Magic
All arcane magic in Cerilia magic originates in the land itself. When arcane spell casters perform magecraft – whether simple cantrips or mighty realm spells – they marshal the wild power of the untamed wilderness and unspoiled plains to empower their mystical effects. The elves name this the magical energy that inhabits every rock, tree, and stream of Cerilia; mebhaighl (meh-VALE), but commoners often refer to this force as earthpower.
Sages speculate that mebhaighl ran mighty in the years before humans came to the continent, as the young land had little civilization imposing demands upon it. Elves say the arcane potency of nature crackled with vibrancy and force that could be felt by those walking the ground. Although human occupation has since caused mebhaighl to weaken, it is too essential a force to ever fade completely.
It is the manipulation of mebhaighl that empowers magecraft. Whether it is a subtle charm to determine the sex of an unborn child or a raw channeling of the mebhaighl to create balls of fire and storms of ice, all arcane lore is empowered through the shaping of the earth's vital energy. Lesser mages train extensively to master the subtlest manipulations of this energy. The lore of true mages, on the other hand, focuses on channeling vast amounts of mebhaighl to awesome and often violent effect. Thus, while both the lore of the lesser mage and the greater mage bend the same forces to achieve their ends, they are each capable of feats that the other is not. The lore of lesser mages is based in the subtle manipulation of mebhaighl. Lesser mages are masters of the arts of knowing (divination), seeming (illusion), commanding (enchantment), and healing (conjuration [healing]).
Divine Magic
Proficiency in all fields of arcane magic is based upon the caster’s understanding of the flow of mebhaighl and the development of practical or intuitive techniques to tap into this power and bend it towards the caster’s end. Divine magic is rooted in faith. Proficiency in divine magic is based upon the caster’s ability to focus and channel the energies of divine beings. Faith is the lens that allows mortal souls to access and direct this power.
When preparing spells each day, a Cerilian priest enters an enlightened state where the power of their faith allows them to tap into the spiritual force of their patron deity. Through simple rituals, the priest internalizes this divine force in the form of prepared spells of their choosing. The priest who transgresses against the beliefs and obligations of their faith may have a crisis of faith. Such a crisis is self-fulfilling, for self-doubt can interfere with the cleric's ability to channel the divine energy of their patron deity. Atonements, spiritual quests, and similar trials do not placate the gods so much as serve as a trial that allows the penitent party to restore their faith.
With a few notable exceptions, Cerilian gods do not directly interfere with the mortal world. Cerilian gods neither grant nor deny specific spells to their followers on the basis of the god's opinion of their behavior. Likewise, the gods do not communicate their wishes directly to their followers – it is the role of man to strive towards spiritual perfection without the direct intervention of the gods. At best, the gods communicate to their servants indirectly, through dreams and omens.
Duane Eggert
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