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  1. #31
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalor
    The ruler of Tuarhievel has "Death Plague" as a realm
    spell. Fhileraene also has the Realm Spell "Raze,"
    which would be a "non-elven" spell I would think;
    according to the ongoing logic against certain magic
    being used by elves.

    Isaelie, the ruler of the Sielwode, has "Summoning" as
    a realm spell.
    Could you help me out here and point me to where the realm spells that these PCs have are listed

    IIRC in general Realm Spells weren't listed for the NPCs.

    Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to say
    that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
    soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
    and aid their people.
    This is pretty much wrong, IMO. Using Great Heart as a descriptive source for elves and death it seems really, really wrong for elves to come back from the dead. In 2nd ed elves couldn't even be raised in normal D&D and resurrection was still more difficult for them.

    You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
    necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
    magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
    during the Great War.
    Using magic of deadly effect is not the same as using Death Magic.


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  2. #32
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    The Ruler of Tuarhievel? Who in particular? If you mean the lovely niece of the Mhor, whom I consider one of the setting's greatest stories along with her love and their daughter in her womb, well, the Player's Secrets book lists her as both a Ranger and without any Realm Spells, as far as I can see. Are you sure you don't refer to material that is non-canon? As for her love, I also don't remember him having such a listing of spells...

  3. #33
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    Replies in line below

    --- "Birthright.net Message Boards"
    <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    >
    > Could you help me out here and point me to where the
    > realm spells that these PCs have are listed

    ***The material I quoted was from the game
    "Birthright: the Gorgon`s Alliance"***

    >
    > IIRC in general Realm Spells weren`t listed for the
    > NPCs.
    >
    > Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to
    > say
    > that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
    > soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
    > and aid their people.
    >
    > This is pretty much wrong, IMO. Using Great Heart
    > as a descriptive source for elves and death it seems
    > really, really wrong for elves to come back from the
    > dead. In 2nd ed elves couldn`t even be raised in
    > normal D&D and resurrection was still more difficult
    > for them.

    ***Could you please explain to me what happens to the
    Sidhe elves when they die? I may have missed it. If
    they simply die and cease to be; what happens to their
    animating force...their spirit? And I didn`t say come
    back from the dead...they are still dead of they are
    in an undead unit; but just maybe they are spirits
    without bodies...not shambling mounds of wrecked
    flesh.***

    >
    > You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
    > necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
    > magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
    > during the Great War.
    >
    > Using magic of deadly effect is not the same as
    > using Death Magic.

    So exactly what magic could they use to "deadly
    effect" if they had no death magic, no fireballs, no
    summoning spells? What...did they charm whole armies
    and make them fight each other? Or was it perhaps
    that they brought death by plague to whole armies, or
    summoned the creatures of the forest to battle against
    humanity that would despoil the creatures native
    habitat...or maybe even bring frigid ice to the camps
    of the humans and freeze them to death by conjuring
    horrible winter weather.

    I`m rather fed up with the notion that Cerilian Elves
    are so restricted in their magic. An overzealous
    notion of them being extreme tree huggers is about to
    wear me out. Elves DO love nature...but they aren`t
    so bound in their restrictions that they aren`t able
    to defend it. If you like, they don`t summon dead
    elves, they have a spell instead that summons nature
    spirits that have the same effect.

    Break out of the box and imagine things that you
    haven`t already read. By seeing the fact that the
    folks that made Birthright approved the use of Death
    Plague by an Elven monarch...its good enough for me.

    Heck...if you really wanna know...ask Rich Baker.
    Nevermind that...I`ll ask him.


    Anthony Edwards

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  4. #34
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG
    The Ruler of Tuarhievel? Who in particular? If you mean the lovely niece of the Mhor, whom I consider one of the setting's greatest stories along with her love and their daughter in her womb, well, the Player's Secrets book lists her as both a Ranger and without any Realm Spells, as far as I can see. Are you sure you don't refer to material that is non-canon? As for her love, I also don't remember him having such a listing of spells...
    I wonder if its from the computer game - a lot of people confuse that as an "official" 2nd ed BR source for rules.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman
    Actually you will find that a game that revolves around domain actions tends to advance time much quicker than a normal game. It is not uncommon for people to run multi-generational games where a player runs his first PC's offspring and etc.
    ... for elves ...

    You're asking me to believe that centuries of game time pass, so that standard elves would start to see aging restrictions.

    Generational games for humans? Sure. But in the worst possible case, a standard elven wizard is 170 years old at 1st level. They don't hit venerable until 350 - 180 years, minimum, have to pass before a standard elf is in any danger of old age. (Note that aging gives wizards more bonuses than penalties).

    Actually I doubt any PC of any race is ever likely to die of old age. Epic levels provide numerous means to extend your lifespan indefinitely. The rules encourage regents to adventure often; if we assume that this means once per six months, then a standard rate of advancement would be 1 level per 2 years - which means you hit level 21 after 40 years. Only half-orcs would be in any possible danger of not surviving that long. And I think only 2 adventures per year is, if anything, underestimating the advancement rate of many campaigns.

    There is no standard human language in the setting there are in fact very fractional languages. So since an elve can use his Int bonus to gain any additional language that puts him at a huge advantage when compared to other races that get to choose a cultural one (what that was to refer to was the culture closest to the character's starting point).
    Originally you were comparing this to standard elves - in which case Sidhelein don't get to speak Common for free, so it is arguable whether or not they are better off. Now you are comparing it to other Birthright races - in which case all humans get whatever bonus languages they like, so this is not particularly unique.

    But there are a number of Prestige Classes that favor elves and multiclassing with spellcasters.
    Prestige classes never apply multiclassing penalties. Did you mean that there were prestige classes that favoured multiclassing to get into them? There's eldritch knight, I suppose, or arcane trickster. Neither require a favoured class to avoid multiclassing penalties; you just need to choose your order more carefully.

    In any case, the PDF advises against using standard prestige classes - are you referring to some Birthright specific classes that haven't been published yet?

    Check my other post about how the school restrictions affect the other races and then revisit your argument
    OK. So the Brecht are the big arcane dudes, then - they seem to be the only ones that don't shun any school.

    I find this whole section to be a bit difficult to take. "Anuireans view enchantments as dishonourable" - yes, I can see that, since your average Anuirean sees enchantment spells cast all the time in this "rare magic" world. Are there really even enough Anuirean wizards to have established this sort of consensus?

    Statements such as "race X doesn't like A and B schools and shuns C" implies that there is a long tradition of magic so that the race as a whole is well educated on what magic does, so that they have formed an opinion (or perhaps even passed laws). Yet with the exception of elves, only scions can even wield most of the magic that is disfavoured or shunned - it is hard to understand how a racial consensus could be reached for something so rare, or are scions really quite common?

    Now, I can see that you could say instead, "Anuireans are honourable as a racial trait", and that would include their wizards, who might indeed shun certain spells as dishonourable. However - and this is the crucial point - this would be on a spell-by-spell basis rather than a school-by-school basis. Is it honourable, for example, to re-animate your fallen opponent's corpse? Probably not - but since Anuireans don't have a problem with necromancy, it looks like it's OK.

    That is what a DM is supposed to do - handle and interpret things. If every thing was a specific mechanic then all DMS would have to rely on house-rules almost all of the time instead of supply "mechanics" where they are purposfully left for them to develop.

    Again the social role-playing is up to the DM and that is what the "rules" support.
    That seems a fairly inconsistent position to take. Why was the social role-playing of elves interacting with humans not left up to the DM? Why is it felt necessary to give elves a -4 penalty to social skills with other humans, and not give a similar rule for interacting with outcasts? (Indeed, perhaps that shouldn't just be an elven thing, as you correctly point out that all wizards have a similar issue).

    Actual that is a variant and was done at the request of the boards to accomodate the elven closeness to nature. The spells were voted on and chosen by the masses. Personnally I didn't think it was necessary but bowed to the public pressure.
    OK, but you can see my point I presume: it certainly clouds things if you have one section saying that elves disfavour conjuration spells and another where they are having such spells specifically added to their list.

    That is something that only detailed reading will help you with.

    Try reading Bloodspawn (a free download from WoitC) to help grasp some of the "history" of the elves. It is free, so there can't be any reason, except for being lazy, with not trying to get it.
    OK, I'll check that out.

    I will say that I am not at all clear why it should be necessary to read multiple books from different sites merely to play a fairly common character class of one of the standard races.

    The restriction for spells is specific to arcane spells and not to divine ones. The notes on favored, disfavored and shunned schools is located under "Arcane Magic" in Ch 3.
    Yes, but why don't divine spells suffer the same restriction? Your average non-spellcaster can't tell whether a spell came from one source or another (unless he wants to take a guess from whether or not the caster is wearing armour), and I don't really understand why an Anuirean cleric wouldn't think it was dishonourable to cast an enchantment/charm when an Anuirean wizard would.

    Is it because arcane magic is more powerful? But bards are arcane casters too - it's hard to argue that any bard spell measures up against Miracle.

  6. #36
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    Hmmm... this is the same debate we have had before. Or at least, very similar.

    One of the problems here is the fact that some people need to have that game balance, and some don't, instead buying into the setting more. The BRCS tries to walk a line somewhere in the middle, perhaps favouring the setting material more - an attempt to carry over the 2e spirit.

    I for one, applaud that. I could care less about game balance, personally. I worry when someone states that due to game balance, there are certain classes that won't be played... such as an elf wizard, according to the originator of this topic.

    Yet my very last campaign, somebody played an elf wizard... and was, by far, the most powerful character in the campaign (even though she rolled horrible stats!!!). She played the full elven wizard too, with the restrictions inherent to the rules... as a specialist. What was her school? Enchantment. She then chose Necromancy and Evocation as her opposed schools.

    Interestingly, you can basically make any of the racial preferences for magic in Ch. 3 as a specialist. Even the Brecht, where you choose their 2 disfavoured schools as their opposed schools.

    Now... the extra spell a day per level seems like a substantial game balance bonus, I suppose. Yet the player was just as ready to play as a "generalist" and obey the restrictions on elves, as long as a few spells would be okay. Which I went over, spell by spell.

    All I could come up with for necromancy was Cause Fear, Fear, Eyebite and Symbol of Fear, mainly because you could make an argument that these are almost enchantments. All the rest have to do with undead, or the life force somehow. And the player wouldn't have any of that for her character.

    So, she would have shunned a school, because of a role-playing effect. Note that there are no rules that state that elves can't learn these spells. Rules don't govern role-playing effects. Heck, if you play a Sidhe deep in Anuire, and use necromancy, nobody will chase you most likely. But, show your face in Tuarhievel or Sielwode, and you may just be put to death... or at the very least, not allowed in.

    sidenote: Note one thing about the BR setting, though. Role-playing effects seem to seep in - find yourself in an elven nation and you are human, you may just be put to death for your race - by a supposed good race. More interesting, the way the politics are set up, "good" temples may end up going into holy wars with each other. And have historically.

    I may be digressing here, but game balance seems to be a moot point, isn't it? There is nothing RESTRICTING an elf from learning necromancy in the rules, just a role-playing effect that the player chooses to face if they break that taboo. That's the player's choice - just like a player-character in a normal AD&D setting faces racism and death if they play a drow. Heck, in BR, a Sidhe faces the same concern in several nations... why compound their sorrows by pissing off their own people.


    And, if game balance is an issue, insist on specialists. That is built into the rules too.

  7. #37
    Special Guest (Donor)
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    Why has Dalor posted the exact same thing 3 times now?

    No, 3 more after my post. All exactly the same. What's with the spam?

    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 07-28-2006 at 03:41 AM.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by epicsoul
    One of the problems here is the fact that some people need to have that game balance, and some don't, instead buying into the setting more.
    I kind of don't see why one has to be sacrificed for the other. Most setting based restrictions can have adjustments to preserve game balance in a fashion that enhances the game; I've offered a few ideas as to tangible effects that using these schools of magic could have, which gives a concrete reason for the elves to shun them. While by no means am I suggesting those are appropriate for the setting - I quite clearly don't understand the setting well enough to voice such an opinion - something similar to those ideas would possibly be appropriate, and IMHO would enhance the game (even as a variant).

    I for one, applaud that. I could care less about game balance, personally. I worry when someone states that due to game balance, there are certain classes that won't be played... such as an elf wizard, according to the originator of this topic.
    Game balance isn't a holy grail, certainly. My group are power gamers; I know some people consider us to be all that is bad about roleplaying, but we're really not; the desire to have a powerful character doesn't translate to a lack of interest in the roleplaying aspect. If all we wanted was a kick-butt character, we'd play Diablo instead.

    To a power gamer, it's not so much about the absolute power as it is about the relative power. Clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, etc: these are pretty much exactly as they are in the PH. But sorcerers, bards, and wizards are depowered, which makes them less attractive.

    (snip!)
    Interestingly, you can basically make any of the racial preferences for magic in Ch. 3 as a specialist. Even the Brecht, where you choose their 2 disfavoured schools as their opposed schools.
    A variant rule that I would have no real issue with:
    In Birthright, all wizards must specialise. An elven wizard must select necromancy as one of his banned schools, and must select one of the other two from evocation and conjuration; no elven wizard may specialise in evocation, conjuration, or necromancy without becoming an outcast.

    And obviously there would be similar rules for all the other races. That's a rule I could get behind 100% - it's mechanically sound, it avoids any fuzziness about what is or is not allowed, and it seems to achieve much the same goal as the current rules. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate to sorcerers or bards, neither of whom can be specialists. I would be inclined to just say that bards have no restrictions, but sorcerers present an issue; if you say that sorcerers do not have to obey these restrictions, then there's going to be a lot of sorcerers (especially elves, who get a Cha bonus) instead of wizards.

    All I could come up with for necromancy was Cause Fear, Fear, Eyebite and Symbol of Fear, mainly because you could make an argument that these are almost enchantments.
    Blindess/Deafness, I would argue, fits there as well. Indeed, I'm not sure I would say Fear based effects were almost enchantments; I do follow the logic (the in game effect is similar) but one could use the same logic to say that Finger of Death was much the same sort of effect as Disintegrate - or, to really stretch the point, that Animate Dead was similar to Summon Monster.

    All the rest have to do with undead, or the life force somehow. And the player wouldn't have any of that for her character.
    Sounds like you had a cool player who had a concept in mind. That's great; all the best to her.

    There is nothing RESTRICTING an elf from learning necromancy in the rules, just a role-playing effect that the player chooses to face if they break that taboo.
    The initial reply to my opening post was that "... elves won't be casting that anyway ...", strongly implying that if my wizard learned Death Plague he wasn't a "proper" elf. Which, actually, having read the various replies in this thread, I now pretty much agree with. It looks more in tune with the setting for me to use Subversion to start wars between my neighbours, which actually sounds like more fun anyway.

    why compound their sorrows by pissing off their own people.
    Here's a side question: can a regent be an outcast? It seems almost a contradiction in terms; if they're a regent, then they're some sort of ruler, right? In the case of a regent that is purely a source regent, I can see it as possible (since there isn't really any political power attached), but for a regent that also owned (say) a guild holding or a province, what effect does becoming an outcast have? A penalty to loyalty checks?

  9. #39
    Moo! Are you happy now? Arjan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz
    Why has Dalor posted the exact same thing 3 times now?

    No, 3 more after my post. All exactly the same. What's with the spam?

    -Fizz
    Dalor is on the mailinglist, and the scrtipt that imports the messages still seem to have some flaws. so not his fault

    Arjan
    Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

  10. #40
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza666
    Yes, but why don't divine spells suffer the same restriction? Your average non-spellcaster can't tell whether a spell came from one source or another (unless he wants to take a guess from whether or not the caster is wearing armour), and I don't really understand why an Anuirean cleric wouldn't think it was dishonourable to cast an enchantment/charm when an Anuirean wizard would.

    Is it because arcane magic is more powerful? But bards are arcane casters too - it's hard to argue that any bard spell measures up against Miracle.
    It is because all arcane magic comes from manipulating the magical force of the planet itself. Divine magic comes from focusing the power of a divinity (i.e., outside the planet's earth energy). For elven rangers this is their "faith in the land" - the logic is at best fuzzy for rangers, but it can be applied. The only thing that elves see as older than themselves is the planet itself. Druidic magic progresses things a step too far by actually placing the planet as a proper deity instead of a minor drawing of power (i.e., ranger spells) - which is why elven druids are generally not present in the setting.

    From the SRD

    Arcane Magic
    All arcane magic in Cerilia magic originates in the land itself. When arcane spell casters perform magecraft – whether simple cantrips or mighty realm spells – they marshal the wild power of the untamed wilderness and unspoiled plains to empower their mystical effects. The elves name this the magical energy that inhabits every rock, tree, and stream of Cerilia; mebhaighl (meh-VALE), but commoners often refer to this force as earthpower.

    Sages speculate that mebhaighl ran mighty in the years before humans came to the continent, as the young land had little civilization imposing demands upon it. Elves say the arcane potency of nature crackled with vibrancy and force that could be felt by those walking the ground. Although human occupation has since caused mebhaighl to weaken, it is too essential a force to ever fade completely.

    It is the manipulation of mebhaighl that empowers magecraft. Whether it is a subtle charm to determine the sex of an unborn child or a raw channeling of the mebhaighl to create balls of fire and storms of ice, all arcane lore is empowered through the shaping of the earth's vital energy. Lesser mages train extensively to master the subtlest manipulations of this energy. The lore of true mages, on the other hand, focuses on channeling vast amounts of mebhaighl to awesome and often violent effect. Thus, while both the lore of the lesser mage and the greater mage bend the same forces to achieve their ends, they are each capable of feats that the other is not. The lore of lesser mages is based in the subtle manipulation of mebhaighl. Lesser mages are masters of the arts of knowing (divination), seeming (illusion), commanding (enchantment), and healing (conjuration [healing]).


    Divine Magic
    Proficiency in all fields of arcane magic is based upon the caster’s understanding of the flow of mebhaighl and the development of practical or intuitive techniques to tap into this power and bend it towards the caster’s end. Divine magic is rooted in faith. Proficiency in divine magic is based upon the caster’s ability to focus and channel the energies of divine beings. Faith is the lens that allows mortal souls to access and direct this power.

    When preparing spells each day, a Cerilian priest enters an enlightened state where the power of their faith allows them to tap into the spiritual force of their patron deity. Through simple rituals, the priest internalizes this divine force in the form of prepared spells of their choosing. The priest who transgresses against the beliefs and obligations of their faith may have a crisis of faith. Such a crisis is self-fulfilling, for self-doubt can interfere with the cleric's ability to channel the divine energy of their patron deity. Atonements, spiritual quests, and similar trials do not placate the gods so much as serve as a trial that allows the penitent party to restore their faith.

    With a few notable exceptions, Cerilian gods do not directly interfere with the mortal world. Cerilian gods neither grant nor deny specific spells to their followers on the basis of the god's opinion of their behavior. Likewise, the gods do not communicate their wishes directly to their followers – it is the role of man to strive towards spiritual perfection without the direct intervention of the gods. At best, the gods communicate to their servants indirectly, through dreams and omens.

    Duane Eggert

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