Realm Spell Saving Throws

[gazza666]

I'm not sure I understand the saving throws for some Realm spells.

Having been recently "desourced" by an upstart province ruler that increased his population, I've decided I want revenge. The spell Death Plague seems like the ticket, but I'm not sure what the Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines mean.

The description of the spell says that the province will lose one level, but it also allows spell resistance and saving throws. Is this just for specific individuals within the province, or everyone? If it's everyone - and you figure out the percentage of the population that will make the save - what percentage must die in order for the province level to drop?

[irdeggman]

Unless otherwise stated in the spell, the saving throws and SR apply only to "individuals".

In the case of Death Plague the saving throw/SR would apply if the DM wanted to determine if an individual was affected, someone like say the province ruler. Normally you wouldn't go into that much detail but it could be done. And if this kind of detail was being done then the saving throw would also come into play.

The province, as a whole is affected by the spell so essentially no saving throw to determine if the province polulation (as whole) is affected. Now it is possible to research (i.e, create) Realm Spells that provide SR and the like - in which cast those numbers would need to be used.

Since this spell requires a Source 5 - it should be really powerful - there aren't all that many level 5 source holdings available in Cerilia, except for elven lands and since the spell is necromantic elves aren't going to be casting it in the first place.

Saving throws and Spell resistance

If the spell affects individuals, spell resistance and/or a saving throw may apply. Spell resistance applies normally except that the spell resistance check is not rolled. Over the intensive and lasting period of a realm spell effect, the caster gets an average result. The spell resistance check is made as if the regent spell caster had rolled a "10" on the check. Thus, spell resistance succeeds only for creatures having SR greater than 10 + caster level.
Realm spells that allow saving throws have a DC 10 + realm spell level + the caster's spell-casting attribute. Spells that affect military units may receive unit saving throws (refer to Chapter Six: Warfare).


Death Plague

Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Target: up to 1 province/2 levels
Duration: Instantaneous, one province per month (see text) (D)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Special Requirements: Source (5)
You create a magical pestilence of epidemic proportions. Residents of affected provinces are exposed to Slimy Doom (see the Dungeon Master's Guide: Diseases). Any province affected by the death plague suffers massive population loss and loses one province level.
The death plague affects one province in the month in which it is cast. In each following month, the plague moves to an adjacent province as directed by the caster. For every two levels of experience past the minimum caster level (5th level for wizards), you affect an additional adjacent province. For the purposes of resolving timing conflicts, the effects of the death plague are instantaneous. Dispelling a death plague after it has taken its toll in a province will not bring the dead back to life, but it will prevent the plague from spreading further.
Death plague dispels and counters bless land.
Regency Cost: The Regency Cost is equal to the sum of the total levels of all provinces affected. Thus, a 7th level wizard casting the spell starting in a province (4) and spreading to a province (3) must pay 7 RP.
Material Components: 2 GB worth of expendable ritual components.

[gazza666]

Since this spell requires a Source 5 - it should be really powerful - there aren't all that many level 5 source holdings available in Cerilia, except for elven lands and since the spell is necromantic elves aren't going to be casting it in the first place.

What have elves got against Necromancy? Did I miss something again? Is it just death magic they're against? Are all elves supposed to be good guys? Heck, I was planning on using Legion of Dead pretty frequently as well - doesn't seem much point to being an elf if you're not allowed to cast the cool spells.

Granted this is not a particularly nice thing to do, but my character (who is an elf) did warn the guy that this sort of thing would happen. Frankly, I think I'm letting him off lightly by restricting myself to the province in question - but then, I'm a merciful sort of person.

[RaspK_FOG]

It's not about playing the good guys or not; it just so happens that Necromancy and Conjuration (Summoning) spells, the ones the Sidhelien are against the use of, are "powered" by the Shadow World, and they find this so perverse, what with their connection to Aebrynis, that they believe it to be unacceptable to use those kinds of spells; Sidhelien who use such spells generally become outcasts, but they may as well get hunted if they go overboard in the application of such magic.

[irdeggman]

What have elves got against Necromancy? Did I miss something again? Is it just death magic they're against? Are all elves supposed to be good guys? Heck, I was planning on using Legion of Dead pretty frequently as well - doesn't seem much point to being an elf if you're not allowed to cast the cool spells.

Granted this is not a particularly nice thing to do, but my character (who is an elf) did warn the guy that this sort of thing would happen. Frankly, I think I'm letting him off lightly by restricting myself to the province in question - but then, I'm a merciful sort of person.

Read Chapter 3 in more detail.

Elves
The first to have embraced magic, the elves remember a time when they alone understood the secrets of mebhaighl. Magic is as familiar and non-threatening to them as windmills and waterwheels are to humans. While all Sidhelien have within them the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a calling to become a mage. Thus, while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, even among them it is not commonplace. Sidhelien mages hold positions of respect and influence in their communities equal to that afforded any well-trained and learned teacher, leader, or artist. Elven spells are sung, not chanted, and the beauty of their spells has been known to bring listeners to tears.
Elves favor the schools of enchantment and illusion as these magics cause the least disruption to the natural flow of mebhaighl. Elves are particularly fond of spells that bring them closer to nature. Sidhelien spellcasters favor spells that allow them to vanquish foes or accomplish a feat without risking any damage to nature.
Elves disfavor the schools of evocation and conjuration, particularly distaining spells that create an overt force of mebhaighl into the environment. This disfavor does not extend to transmutations spells, which are considered to be a bending – not a breaking – of natural laws.
Elves shun the school of necromancy absolutely. An elf who even dabbles in death magics faces the censure of his peers and risks ostracism from the community. Elves practice great caution when casting spells that could harm nature. Elves have been known to hunt down spellcasters, including other elves, who have ruined nature with their carelessness.

Ceilian elves have a strong tie to nature and the natural order of things. This tie can be seen as part of the reason that they can exceed the rules for polulation and source levels of provinces. Necromancy and conjuration are seen as things that "force" nature into unatural ways.

Evocation - is well dangerous to the environement (fireball in the forest anyone?)

[RaspK_FOG]

I stand corrected.

[gazza666]

This is an absolutely crippling limitation on elves. It means, amongst other things, that their only source of healing (rangers) face being outcast if they cast Cure Light Wounds. Many of the more powerful spells are necromantic or conjuration spells; denying access to these limits elven wizards to essentially casting variants on Fireball at high levels.

Fortunately it's only in the roleplaying notes rather than the mechanical restrictions - so I can (and will) ignore it.

[RaspK_FOG]

Sorry if I sound harsh but did you realise you are contradicting almost everything irdeggman mentioned? Healing spells are, as it seems, not of the necromantic school, and the things that are disdainful to the sidhelien are not set in stone apart from Necromancy; in fact, Evocation and Conjuration is OK unless you go into grossly "perversing" ground, like Summoning spells and the use of destructive magic in areas of natural growth. So, in fact, it's more likely that elves don't cast YAF (Yet Another Fireball).

(And, yes, source material actually says that the elves LACKED healing in general.)

[dalor]

The ruler of Tuarhievel has "Death Plague" as a realm
spell. Fhileraene also has the Realm Spell "Raze,"
which would be a "non-elven" spell I would think;
according to the ongoing logic against certain magic
being used by elves.

Isaelie, the ruler of the Sielwode, has "Summoning" as
a realm spell.

Realm spells may defy the common concept of what magic
elves will use, simply because it is so limited in the
number of spells available; but then Isaelie also has
Fireball...

Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to say
that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
and aid their people.

Showing that an elven monarch actually has Death
Plague as one of his realm spells shows me that they
are allowed such magic. Plagues are a natural thing;
all disease stems from nature, and the simple
classification system of magic in the D&D game is a
bit too rigid at any rate. Spells used to have
several "schools" from which they could derive their
power...so I still go with the logic that a spell can
have similar effects even if they are from different
schools.

You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
during the Great War.

Note: all my spells mentionings are from official
sources...2nd Edition AD&D.


Anthony Edwards

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[irdeggman]

The ruler of Tuarhievel has "Death Plague" as a realm
spell. Fhileraene also has the Realm Spell "Raze,"
which would be a "non-elven" spell I would think;
according to the ongoing logic against certain magic
being used by elves.

Isaelie, the ruler of the Sielwode, has "Summoning" as
a realm spell.

Could you help me out here and point me to where the realm spells that these PCs have are listed

IIRC in general Realm Spells weren't listed for the NPCs.

Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to say
that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
and aid their people.

This is pretty much wrong, IMO. Using Great Heart as a descriptive source for elves and death it seems really, really wrong for elves to come back from the dead. In 2nd ed elves couldn't even be raised in normal D&D and resurrection was still more difficult for them.

You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
during the Great War.

Using magic of deadly effect is not the same as using Death Magic.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com[/quote]