Results 51 to 60 of 153
Thread: Return of the Guilder
-
12-05-2006, 10:02 PM #51
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- southwest Ontario, Canada
- Posts
- 563
- Downloads
- 140
- Uploads
- 1
Originally Posted by irdeggman
Thus, i thought you were being very harsh on the guilder class.
But in actuality, you're blanketted all classes, saying the Noble is better for regency than ANY class. I understand your meaning now.
A Guild Master, IMO, is not just a regent he is a regent who is especially good at the domain level economics. That was what I was trying to get to.
Magicians were just too weak and guilders were too focused on domain actions. For adventuring it was far better to play a thief or a bard than a guilder. A guilder didn't really have anything that he could do adventure-wise. He had better armor and weapons than a thief, but didn't have any of the combat or stealth abilities. He had better interaction capabilites than a thief, but nowhere as good as a bard and no spell capability.
So capturing that in 3.5 seems kind of counterproductive to me. Whereas capturing the domain level command of economics seems to be something interesting and very reflective of the Brecht culture.
-Fizz
-
12-05-2006, 10:03 PM #52
Middle class doesn not mean mid-level wealth. Indeed, anyone who can count quickly realizies that a guy who owns guild holdings and trade routes makes more money than a guy who owns provinces. This was also true of the rennaissance in Europe, where bankrupt nobles sought marriages with the rising and wealthier merchant families.
Secondly, why is it not natural and normal for wealth to beget wealth? Why should it not be the case that the children of the guilders are indeed the guilders of the next generation?
Sure just as an Anuirian of obscure origin might win fame on the battlefield, rise to a knighthood, and perhaps even a lordship, once in a great while (like when we talk about those exceptional people, PC's) some blooded young fellow might win a handsome stake at dice when Lady Luck smiled on him, and parlay it into a ship of his own, wherin he takes cargos to foriegn shores and earns remarkable profits. Over time such a figure might aquire a fleet of ships and even some holdings in two key ports.
To say these things are possible is not to say that its far more common for the the son of a guilder (or even a landed gentleman) to seek his fortune in trade. He may succeed his father's holdings, or start a new trade domain. But the class that best describes him is one that would give him some learned background in how to run a trade domain.
Finally the rogue is not just a theif, or even primarily a thief (if by thief what you mean is pickpocket, burglar, or bandit), certainly the merchant has always had the reputation of a theif if you mean someone who reprents inferior goods as high quality, who uses false weights to balance coins paid to him, who shaves coins in his posession, who lies, cheats, and otherwise steals. Consdier that seasonal favorite, Ebenezer Scrooge, who was quite honest, but still despised. I saw Harry Potter II on cable this weekend, and when the old merchant is pawning some of the senior Malfoy's goods, when the blonde fellow turns to reprimand his son, he steals back some of the coins he paid for Manfoy's goods. I don't think that the guilders are so terribly un-rogue like. Slight of Hand, Bluff, Appraise, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Sense Motive all are useful to the Guilder, and all are Rogue skills.
-
12-05-2006, 10:09 PM #53Originally Posted by Fizz
-
12-05-2006, 11:01 PM #54
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- Virginia Beach, Virginia
- Posts
- 3,945
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
Originally Posted by kgauck
I agree with this.
Cityscape is a good book. It doesn't, however capture city-based classes or prestige classes. It does give a lot of information on how to structure cities. Districts, politics, houses, guilds, organizations and the like. It also introduces the concept of contacts in a bit of detail (and some feats to modify it).
It also defines "social classes".
Lower class: the relatively poor.
Middle class: representing those who are doing reasonably well for themselves, but still hold little true wealth or power.
Upper class: royalty, nobility, and those so powerfully wealthy that they are capable of influencing the course of society.
But there hasn't been anything that really focuses on a class that is akin to the guilder. IMO it is because the guilder was designed to be bigger than someone who runs a shop (again the domain level of play) and D&D just doesn't recognize that level at all.Duane Eggert
-
12-05-2006, 11:50 PM #55
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- southwest Ontario, Canada
- Posts
- 563
- Downloads
- 140
- Uploads
- 1
Originally Posted by kgauck
"... they generally fall into the middle layers of income (in that incredibly wide gap between royalty and peasant landowners)."
Sure just as an Anuirian of obscure origin might win fame on the battlefield, rise to a knighthood, and perhaps even a lordship, once in a great while (like when we talk about those exceptional people, PC's) some blooded young fellow might win a handsome stake at dice when Lady Luck smiled on him, and parlay it into a ship of his own, wherin he takes cargos to foriegn shores and earns remarkable profits. Over time such a figure might aquire a fleet of ships and even some holdings in two key ports.
I don't think that the guilders are so terribly un-rogue like. Slight of Hand, Bluff, Appraise, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Sense Motive all are useful to the Guilder, and all are Rogue skills.
And for the record, a 2nd Ed thief class didn't have to be a `thief' either.
-FizzLast edited by Fizz; 12-06-2006 at 12:01 AM.
-
12-06-2006, 12:04 AM #56
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- southwest Ontario, Canada
- Posts
- 563
- Downloads
- 140
- Uploads
- 1
kgauck-
I notice your site also has a core Guilder class. Do you use this class in your campaign?
http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/guilder.htm
-FizzLast edited by Fizz; 12-06-2006 at 12:06 AM.
-
12-06-2006, 02:50 AM #57
- Join Date
- Oct 2004
- Location
- Blackgate, Danigau
- Posts
- 87
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
Originally Posted by kgauck
Certainly, any DM can create a class which ignores monster fighting or hands out domain level bonuses. Decreasing personal power in exchange for domain power could be a fun and interesting option. But is a domain focused path open to all of your players? If only players who are running guild holdings have a class with that choice, your other players might feel a lack of temple or law specialists. You might consider a suite of classes designed for all BR regents to specialize. [Perhaps beyond the scope of this discussion...]
As we are just having a friendly brainstorm here, and not looking to make something "official" for the BRCS, I think we can discuss two different types of guilder classes. One, a standard WotC-style adventuring class who would fit nicely into any Complete Hero book, be mechanically on par with a rogue running a Guild, but have better flavor. Another, that tries to capture a guild domain focused regent, who trades combat and dungeon prowess for more domain power than a rogue or cleric. Perhaps, for labeling purposes call the first the [Complete] Guilder class and the latter a [Regent] Guilder class.
As may be obvious, I would prefer the Complete Guilder to be available for all the campaigns I've ever played. The BR campaigns I have played in have tended to be at either extreme of playing styles. In the campaign where I am a rogue/ranger 'guilder', I dont think I've ever made a domain action check! And in the several Pbems Ive played, I think a guilder with domain bonuses would just replace the rogue, as those games tend to ignore adventuring/monster fighting and most players min/max for domain rule.
Either way, I think we can all agree that 2e wasnt the paragon of balanced classes [see BR magician]. Whether we are helping BR fans who come to the site by kludging together a Complete Guilder or a Regent Guilder, the 2e Guilder need not be our arbiter of balance, just flavor.
-
12-06-2006, 03:01 AM #58
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- Virginia Beach, Virginia
- Posts
- 3,945
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
Originally Posted by Fizz
And in 3.5 they can apply their skill points to cross class skills instead (since they have so many now) as well as to class skills that definitely fit the guilder theme (like Appraise*, Balance (for those sea faring ones), Bluff*, Craft* , Deceipher Script, Diplomacy*, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information*, Intimidate*, Knowledge (local), Listen (for eavesdropping), Profession*, Sense Motive*), * are key RP collection skills for guilds.
Just because a skill is on their list doesn't mean it gets taken, most rogues don't take ranks in all of their current class skills anyway - they focus on a few that they are realy good at.
Now the biggest one missing would be Speak Language and that belongs with the guilder theme, but again with the large amoutn of sp that a rogue gets and assuming the PC is beign kept true to the "theme" there are plenty left for cross-class skills in Speak Language.Duane Eggert
-
12-06-2006, 03:01 AM #59
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Posts
- 124
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
The only thing I`ve seen that comes close to showing
how to put together entire trade networks in D&D is
taken from two seperate books:
Dungeon Master`s Guide II
and
Power of Faerun (where there is a Merchant Prince
Prestige Class)
Anthony Edwards
--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> But there hasn`t been anything that really focuses
> on a class that is akin to the guilder. IMO it is
> because the guilder was designed to be bigger than
> someone who runs a shop (again the domain level of
> play) and D&D just doesn`t recognize that level at
> all.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
-
12-06-2006, 03:22 AM #60
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- southwest Ontario, Canada
- Posts
- 563
- Downloads
- 140
- Uploads
- 1
Originally Posted by irdeggman
Now the biggest one missing would be Speak Language and that belongs with the guilder theme, but again with the large amoutn of sp that a rogue gets and assuming the PC is beign kept true to the "theme" there are plenty left for cross-class skills in Speak Language.
This is why i think the variant is the way to go. Take the rogue. Drop the sneak attack, dodge, evasion, and all the sneaky skills. Replace with some other appropriate skills, and some of the special abilities that have been suggested here, maybe a bonus Skill Focus feat here and there. It'd be a perfectly playable class, and be very distinct from the rogue.
(I'd also give the Guilder 10 skill points, but i've heard people say that goes against 3E- never understood why. But that's another debate...)
-Fizz
Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Bookmarks