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  1. #101
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    What I am trying to tell you is that, first of all, neither is a bard or rogue a mere person; consider how people who don't get into trouble (peasants, commoners, sorcerers, wizards) get only d4s, whereas a d6 signifies getting into fights and so on, but not being a regular, actual combatant...

    To put it bluntly, consider the monk and ranger classes: one is an outdoorsman that hikes, runs, climbs, etc. all in a natural environment such as a forest, desert, mountain, or such, and the other is a martial artist! I mean, can we even begin to say that the guilder is like them!? Absurd!

    As for skill points, there you have it: being able to spend more than 8 skill points in any possible skill IS NOT balanced; on the other hand, saying that they get 8 or 6 skill points and another 2 or 4 (respectively) that can only be spent on guilder class skills (or a subset of them) seems quite simple and reasonable to me. In case you want to disagree as to number of skills one should be getting, allow me to remind you that EXPERTS get only 6 base skill points with each level they take; exactly as many as a bard or ranger... Now, pushing that to 10... I don't know, it kind of misses the point, in my opinion.

  2. #102
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Looking over the guilder posted by Fizz, it certainly seems like a rogue varient, but one that does have a few increases in power. It seems like all the base combat power of a rogue with the special abilities swapped out for guilder abilities, plus 10 skill points.

    I don't think the class is out of whack, but it does seem better than other classes. For a Brecht campaign where everyone might want a few levels of Guilder its not too bad. Similar classes would suffer by comparison, though. Who would elect to take more than one or three levels of rogue unless they really, really like the sneak attack ability? Likewise the Scoundrel (which isn't a D&D class, but suffers by comparison).

    I'm not wedded to balance, so if these issues don't seem like problems to you, then I think the class is fine.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG
    To put it bluntly, consider the monk and ranger classes: one is an outdoorsman that hikes, runs, climbs, etc. all in a natural environment such as a forest, desert, mountain, or such, and the other is a martial artist! I mean, can we even begin to say that the guilder is like them!? Absurd!
    You seem to be under the impression that a character with d8 hit points must be a secondary combatant or that d8 is the only criteria that makes a good secondary combatant. I disagree. In the case of the ranger, he a good BAB and special combat abilities. In the case of the monk, he has his own set of abilities.

    Would you consider the Shadow Dancer or Hierophant secondary combatants? They've both got a d8. What about aristocrats- an NPC with a life of luxury yet with a d8? Hit dice are a measure of physical toughness, which can be unrelated to how much you can dish it out.

    Now you think d6- that's fine. I've not made up my mind myself. I'm just saying that a d8 doesn't hurt the theme of the class any, particularly if you think of them from the Indiana Jones / Van Helsing archtype.

    As for skill points, there you have it: being able to spend more than 8 skill points in any possible skill IS NOT balanced; on the other hand, saying that they get 8 or 6 skill points and another 2 or 4 (respectively) that can only be spent on guilder class skills (or a subset of them) seems quite simple and reasonable to me.
    But why is 10 skill points alone unbalancing? Why is giving the 2 extra ones instead not balancing? The end result is the same. It makes no difference except to be slightly more restrictive and more complicated than necessary. The player can almost always tweak the distribution of points to get the desired result anyways.

    In case you want to disagree as to number of skills one should be getting, allow me to remind you that EXPERTS get only 6 base skill points with each level they take; exactly as many as a bard or ranger... Now, pushing that to 10... I don't know, it kind of misses the point, in my opinion.
    By that argument fighters should only get a d8 for hit points because that's what warriors get. No, experts are an NPC class, while guilders are meant to be a fully playable PC class.

    The class might be unbalanced for a number of reasons- i just disagree that 10 skill points by itself is an unbalancing factor.

    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 01-15-2007 at 06:17 PM.

  4. #104
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    You do know you are not saying the same things I do, right?

    First of all, an outdoorsman and a martial artist, as I insisted, are not really characterised by being "secondary combatants;" no, what defines them is toughness...

    On the matter of other classes: clerics and druids are examples of commonly cloistered monk-like hermits that also happen to fight a lot and generally lead a life of quite some hardship; likewise, animals and the average humanoid also do get d8s. Notice, now, how a commoner gets a d4... Why is that? But, of course, because he is not so tough!

    A d6, now... That represents the man who is above the commoner, yet not as tough as a hermit, outdoorsman, secondary combatant (and a shadowdancer is a primarily melee combatant when it comes to fighting, although not a promary fighter), or person who is trained to fight and act and defend himself (like the aristocrat); and lo and behold! A warrior also gets d8s!

    Thus, the question is: should a guilder be equally capable a combatant (as this is the breakdown of a class's BAB and HD) as an aristocrat? Remember, an aristocrat did get combat training. Interestingly enough, a guilder retains a thief's lesser combat prowess, yet still some competence it is, unlike that of a wizard, and toughness! See my point? The only reason, by comparison, that magicians get d6s is that they certainly are more of a wandering, roughed-up sort, quite close to the expert, in a sense.

    This leads me to my final point: I didn't suggest that your character gets only 6 skill points, I suggested that he does not get 10 skill points. For one thing, medium armours are good for a guilder (breastplate, anyone?), Speak Language seems an appropriate class skill, and I certainly like the giving him 8 skill points, plus 2 skill points that he must spend on guilder class skills (which would be simpler than adding a line that said that he had to spend 2 out of 10 on specific skills would ever be!), which, while not restricting him to no end, surely gives more of a feel of a "more apt at using skills" rogue - in the traditional sense of the word.

    Still, that's the least of my worries; you see, what I greatly dislike about the net is that someone out there makes his ideas known and, when someone disagrees, no matter what, the only retort he can pretty much expect is: "That's OK if that's what you want, but I've already decided; oh, by the way, people, this is my work..." Then, of course, you feel compeled to explain to the world how Mrs. Robinson was not a song written by The Beatles, but Simon & Garfunkel, but everyone has a "Mrs. Robinson - The Beatles.mp3" file somewhere on their shared files... *sigh* See my point?

    10 skill points per level, I'm fine with. d8? Not a chance.

    Sorry if I am too headstrong, and I would really appreciate a final rundown of what you intend to do; my regards.

  5. #105
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Martial Nobles

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz
    What about aristocrats- an NPC with a life of luxury yet with a d8?
    I don't think aristocrats are wallowing in luxury. Or perhaps I should say, my aristocrats are not wallowing in luxury. This is the warrior class. Whether knights or karls, nobles are those who can afford to poses more than a spear and a leather tunic. Who can spend time fighting, hunting, and living the vigorous life, rather than working a craft or a plot of land to put food in their belly. They are the ones who make feudal or feudalistic oaths of military service to overlords.

    Now, where I see the fighter class as being the best way to represent a pure combatant, the noble should be a decent combatant, certainly on par with a cleric. I'd say the noble, who governs because he looks good on a horse, should be able to step into the fighter class (take a few levels) and not feel like he's some kind of hybrid.

    I see the noble in full armors, proficient in all martial weapons, having the cleric BAB, and d8 HD, but with no combat feats. This kind of character can easily take a few levels as fighter and just toughen up.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG
    On the matter of other classes: clerics and druids are examples of commonly cloistered monk-like hermits that also happen to fight a lot and generally lead a life of quite some hardship; likewise, animals and the average humanoid also do get d8s. Notice, now, how a commoner gets a d4... Why is that? But, of course, because he is not so tough!
    Yes, average humanoid gets a d8. That's the point. d8 is average. Guilders are skilled adventurers, they are not wimps sitting around a shop all day- they're blazing new territory looking for treasure and profit. Conversely, the stereotypical rogue lives in the city and survives by NOT getting hit, while the stereotypical wizard spend most of his days studying in a library.

    The d8 is right in the middle of hit die types. If you average out all the character classes, the average hit die is just under a d8.

    Thus, the question is: should a guilder be equally capable a combatant (as this is the breakdown of a class's BAB and HD) as an aristocrat? Remember, an aristocrat did get combat training.
    Since i've never thought of the aristocrat as being a good combatant, i don't think that's a problem. There's nothing in the aristocrat description that suggests they've undergone combat training for much of their life.

    But the big thing in all of this is that combat prowess is not just a measure of BAB and hit die. My version of the guilder has NO special offensive abilities. If i were in a fight, i'd still take a rogue (for sneak attack) or a cleric (heavier armor, domains) or a druid (shapechanging) or a monk (built for combat) over my guilder with d8 hit die.

    Thus to me, the d8 guilder is a character of average toughness with less than average combat ability. Should he be less than average toughness? Maybe- i'm still debating that myself.

    and I certainly like the giving him 8 skill points, plus 2 skill points that he must spend on guilder class skills
    So, you want the extra 2 skill points to be forced towards a class skill, and not be available for cross-class skills? Since the guilder can choose his own class skills, does this make much of a difference?

    Still, that's the least of my worries; you see, what I greatly dislike about the net is that someone out there makes his ideas known and, when someone disagrees, no matter what, the only retort he can pretty much expect is: "That's OK if that's what you want, but I've already decided; oh, by the way, people, this is my work..."
    You proceed from a false premise. I'm challenging you not because "it's my my work" but because i'm trying to understand your position. By explaining my side of why i built it a certain way, you can understand what i'm going for. And by playing devil's advocate to your position i can understand your objections.

    I have on several occassions now said that i haven't decided on a d6 or a d8. And that is still the case.

    My mind is torn between two archetypes: Consider Van Helsing. The traditional Van Helsing character (a la Bram Stoker's Dracula) would be a d6. But the character in the very silly `Van Helsing' movie played by Hugh Jackman would be a d8 kind of character. Most people here would think of guilders as being the former- the pure expert, not an action hero, so i understand the push towards d6. It's also more consistent with 2nd Ed. So, i am in fact leaning that way. But i wanted to explore the possibilities.


    -Fizz

  7. #107
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Pg 206 of DMH II.

    While under designing a Prestige Class the “design principles” are the same.

    “Generally speaking the number of skill points and the number of class skills should be directly related. There is no point in having a huge list of class skills if the character doesn’t have the skill points to take advantage of it. The opposite is also true: There’s no point in having a stack of skip points and not having a long list of class skills on which to spend them.

    Classes get two, four, six or eight skill points modified by the character’s Intelligence. A prestige class should not “give away” the skill list, making every skill a class skill. Class skill should reflect the nature and the pursuits of the prestige classes.”


    Pg 174 of the DMG covers modifying character classes and 175 covers creating character classes.

    Pg 174

    If you have created a variant class with sneaking and subterfuge capabilities better than a rogue or a combat oriented class more adept at combat than a fighter, you have gone astray.”

    “Various aspects of a class – such as Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or spell’s per day are easy to change, you should be aware of the implications. A rogue with a fighter’s attack bonus is better than a regular rogue, unless her gain in this aspect is offset by some loss elsewhere.”


    Special abilities are somewhat more difficult to alter. Always have a concept with strengths and weaknesses in mind – don’t just try to create the class that can do everything.”

    Based on the last version of the guilder you have indeed created a character that is better at "sneaking and subterfuge" since the class can choose 15 class skills and gets more skill points than a rogue the class is better at these "rogue" traits.

    You have likewise created a class that is better at rulership than the BRCS noble for the same reasons, total choice of class skills, more skill points and bonus feats from any feat.

    With this class - why would anyone choose to play a noble? It would likewise be hard pressed to find a reason for a player to play a rogue (with the exception of the sneak attack ability - which can be substantial though).
    Duane Eggert

  8. #108
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Aha, we are getting there, I think...

    First things first, there's a thing you forgot, Fizz, when it comes to Hit Dice: please do look up on the creatures that actually do get d12s as Hit Dice; right, the only ones who get them are: dragons, undead (no Con bonus!), and unbelievably tough individuals (barbarians, frenzied berserkers, the like).

    d4s are likewise, restricted to classes that are, more or less, not the least bit tough. Note that no creature type ever gets a d4 Hit Die! However, the classes that get a d4 signify that's not unheard for a character to not be tough.

    So, we are basically left with d6s, d8s, and d10s. What we have here are:
    • fey
    • aberrations, animals, elementals, giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, outsiders, plants, vermin
    • constructs, magical beasts, oozes


    My question here is: does an NPC guilder resemble a fey or a humanoid/monstrous humanoid/giant of equal Hit Dice and Constitution? I lean closer to fey...

    As to the matter of skill points, what I would do, actually, would be this: I would give them 6-sided Hit Dice, 8 skill points per level, proficiency with all simple weapons and up to medium armours and the buckler (maybe), and the following class skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Swim, and Use Rope, and the ability to learn any 5 of the following skills as class skills: Balance, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Search, Spot, Survival, and Tumble. This makes him narrower in perspective than the rogue (mind you, the guilder didn't originally get such abilities as hiding in shadows or moving in silence), but allows him the same depth.

    If you want to show the dedication a guilder has in learning his craft, allow him to further expand his list of class skills from the ones above, if you like; on the other hand, I particularly like the mechanic employed by the team that made d20 Star Wars and The Wheel of Time: simple grant the guilder the Skill Focus feat for any class skill he has some ranks in (or something like that) every some levels! Isn't it quite simple?
    Last edited by RaspK_FOG; 01-16-2007 at 01:32 PM.

  9. #109
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    Just to chime in.

    I would back d8 HD. Im coming at this from the opposite direction. Instead of matching the HD to the theme, Im considering playability. With d8 your guilder is about as useful as a cleric without spells in combat. That is to say he will fill a 5ft square nicely, keep monsters from getting to the wizard in the back, but probably not deal much damage. With d6 the guilder becomes more of a liability in combat. A few hits and he has to hide back with the wizard, but he doesnt have much to do there.

    Class skills. I agree with the DMG, that you shouldnt be able to freely pick all class skills. While a good DM and players can work well with anything, this could lead to some very un-guilder guilders. I think I would ban this class in a non-br game. To juicy for someone to level dip to fill up tumble, k[arcana], or somesuch. Guilder has a natural core of class skills. I like the idea of a few flexible class skills. see my previous posts on this...

    * Bonus feat (any)
    Small thing, but usually a polished class would just offer a list of bonus feats. although i suppose any feat is equal to guilder knack or skill mastery...

    Favored Skill: Similar to rangers favored enemy- Guilder gets +2 (or maybe 2 bonus ranks) in a single skill, then another pair of +2 bonuses at 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th level.
    An unnamed bonus of +2 would be the way to do it. Bonus ranks should be avoided.

    Weapons: all simple and martial
    hmmm...still not sure on two-handed martial weapons. Without an attack style its probably ok. The fighter with a greatsword will still laugh at the guilder with a greatsword.

    Skill points: 10
    I'll repeat the chorus and say 8 is enough. With favored skills, jack of all trades, some flexible class skills, and skill mastery available at 6th, a guilder kinda owns a rogue skillwise even with just 8. Guilder knack completes the rout. 8 forces the guilder to specialize or be spread a bit thin. If a player is really chomping at the bit for more skill points, point them at guilder knack; that is a butt-load of virtual skill points right there.

    Anyway, to sum up. Id say setting some class skills is very important. And 8 is enough to call this class skill monkey.

  10. #110
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    on the other hand, I particularly like the mechanic employed by the team that made d20 Star Wars and The Wheel of Time: simple grant the guilder the Skill Focus feat for any class skill he has some ranks in (or something like that) every some levels! Isn't it quite simple?
    That is a nice mechanic. Although in looking closely at this build, it has so many great skill monkey abilities that skill focus(es) would be over the top.

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