Cerilian Dragons?

[gazza666]

IMO FR is the worst of all "settings" to use as a basis for what constitutes a "setting.

Fair enough (though I might offer Greyhawk as even worse).

Try making this statement on the Dark Sun boards at the WotC site and see what happens.

If you wish.

My point is not to ridicule, and I sincerely apologise if it comes across that way. In essence, my point is that Birthright (and Dark Sun) are actually so intriguing that even if you don't particularly care for the setting it's still got some cool elements. One certainly could not say that about FR, of course.

For those of you that love the setting as well as the mechanics, that's great! But I much prefer my own homebrew campaigns (or those of other members of my group); not because I'm a better world creator than the likes of those that come up with the published stuff, but because I know my players better than they do. This can be a very polarising argument! The "metaplot" that White Wolf implemented over its line of games was a huge draw to some players - and was utterly ignored by people like me, to the point of actually being turned off as they began to release products that were essentially meaningless outside the context of the metaplot.

I'm not saying that Birthright is going in that direction; I wouldn't even venture to suggest that it would be bad if it did (as I say, it's a very polarising thing - lots of people will love it). I'm just saying that my game is about my PCs, primarily; all other material takes a back seat and will be discarded immediately if I feel it is more entertaining to do so. I'm well aware that one can have one's cake and eat it too, in a sense - you can certainly run a campaign that focuses on the setting material without having your players feel unimportant. But to do so requires a significant immersion in this material for both DM and (to an only slightly lesser extent) the players. I'd rather spend that time creating my own variant rather than extending somebody else's - but that's a personal decision rather than one of objective merit. All I'm saying is that to use the Birthright rules in what is - to all intents and purposes - a setting somewhat removed from those rules is not really "wrong", and I doubt it is unique either.

This one is a far too common occurance based on the casual gamer, IMO. There are actually "better" generic books out there for domain rules if that is all that is desired. I would recommend Fields of Blood by Eden as the best but I haven't yet read the rules from Mongoose (Conan IIRC).

I may check those out, but they do have a significant disadvantage over using Birthright: they're not free.

Cry Havoc has a very detailed system for handling mass combat also.

I own Cry Havoc. It has some good points but also some bad points. The major bad features are that it concentrates far more on skirmish level mass combat than army level; indeed, I'm not even convinced that you really need a special set of rules to handle skirmish level combat (granted, you have a lot of rolls to make, but I'm not the only guy that has a laptop and a will to use it). The vast majority of mass combat systems underestimate the impact of magic; Birthright's War Cards have this issue as well (although it can be argued that with the relatively low frequency of arcane casters in Cerilia they rarely make an appearance on the battlefield).

Still, Cry Havoc is pretty much state of the art for mass combat in D&D at present, and certainly better than the miniatures rules.

This is unfortuneately a side-effect of the overdue d20 Atlas project which is supposed to be updating the "setting" information for 3.5 rules and interworking with the BRCS mechanics.

Ah, fair enough.

[Cargaroth]

[QUOTE=irdeggman]IMO FR is the worst of all "settings" to use as a basis for what constitutes a "setting. Over the years of 2nd ed it evolved into a "setting" where just about everything was added so that there was really no consistency any more. Mastica was inserted into the FR world as well as Red Steel (IIRC) and numerous other "mini-settings" that really had no correllary to the world as orginially set up or as portrayed in the novels.

I have to agree, though some aspects of the broader game universe can be included if done so carefully. I've run a BR campaign where the PCs have visited Erik's home on the Outlands and even explored the beginngs of the spelljammer system (we still use 2nd ED), but I am very careful what they are able to bring back to Cerilia. The teifling NPC had to spend most of his time disguised and spelljamming ships were banned from Aebrynis' surface. It gave the PCs favorite characters the chance to explore a wide universe before returnig to rule provinces and bash orogs.

Yes it did alter the tone of the campaign, but only temporarily before the PCs settled dow to deal with regency style adventures.

[Danny_Cline]

Great Heritage did not exist in 2nd ed and was first introduced in the playtest document and later modified for the BRCS sanctioned version.

from the BRCS

“Great Heritage” is a template that can be added to any blooded human or demi-human. While not really a part of the bloodline strength, the Great Heritage template is something that is strongly associated with a character’s bloodline. Some characters are descendents of bloodlines that are nearly legendary. Only such characters may have the Great Heritage template. This template represents the legendary status of the scion's bloodline. These bloodlines are often far stronger than bloodlines that are maintained through careful management of the line's domain alone. Only a few families with great heritage can be found in each cultural region. Only those with major or great bloodline strengths can have the Great Heritage template.

The Great Heritage template can only be added to a scion with the DM’s permission. It is a reflection of the character’s high status and regard in relation to those he/she rules. In order to have the template a scion must either be a descendent of a legendary bloodline or perform acts of sufficient proportion that the scion is elevated to epic proportions (not to be confused with epic level). Tales of his deeds are spread far and wide by the bards. Due to the very public nature of this template a scion cannot hide his presence and must be a highly visible leader. A character who presumes to be the long lost descendant of the Roele bloodline would not automatically have this template, although if it could be proven that he was indeed the legitimate heir then during the public proclamation of this acknowledgement he would gain the template.

Since fame is a fleeting thing it is also possible to lose this template by actions or inaction. If a regent losses a number of significant battles or many of his holdings then the faith of the followers will be lost as will the template.

Benefits: A scion with the Great Heritage template gains +4 to his bloodline score and a +2 to his Leadership score. If the scion ever loses the Great Heritage template he suffers a –8 to his bloodline score and a –4 to his Leadership score. Former legendary characters that have fallen from grace fall farther than do those of lesser status. This template carries no level adjustment.

The Great Heritage template is not supposed to be granted to mere domain regents. It is supposed to go to the greatest that a culture has to offer. For example the Roele bloodline would grant a Great Heritage template as would El-Arrassi.

IMO your PC would have had one after Deismaar. If he qualified for a True bloodline then he was legendary enough to have the Great Heritage template. He would also have lost it once he went into isolation (and became an awnie). IMO anyone with a True bloodline would have the Great heritage template - the two things go hand in hand.

Regaining it is no simple matter. It would have to be tied to events of an epic proportion that is something on par with killing the Gorgon or reuniting the empire (for Anuire - which is where you are located and the culture you are from).

The statement above seems a little much unless I'm missing something from the great heritage template. It doesn't state that it is required that anyone with a true bloodline have the great heritage template. An allowance is different from a requirement. In fact, there is an oversight that says that

"Only those with major or great bloodline strengths can have the Great Heritage template."

This is probably due to the assumption that no player character will break the stated rules in order to play a true blooded character, but even in that case it should be made clear for NPCs.

In any case, the only mention of anyone, regardless of his or her bloodline strength or status possibly being required to take a template is that of a proven Roele heir, which sets the bar pretty high for a requierment. I assume the Gorgon has this template. If the Gorgon does not have this template, there is certainly no good case for someone else being forced to take it. Even if he does, it's beyond unusual for a PC to be forced to take a template, regardless of possible excessive permissiveness on the part of the DM.

The border where the template goes from being possible to being required should be made clear. While Mikal's character is certainly possibly very famous, his fame is obviously less great, in either the early days or in the present, than a Roele heir. If the borderline is a true bloodline, that needs to be made explicit.

[irdeggman]

The statement above seems a little much unless I'm missing something from the great heritage template. It doesn't state that it is required that anyone with a true bloodline have the great heritage template. An allowance is different from a requirement. In fact, there is an oversight that says that

"Only those with major or great bloodline strengths can have the Great Heritage template."

If you notice the BRCS (sanctioned chap 2) is written such that PCs don't have True bloodlines. True isn't on the random table (2-2).

This is probably due to the assumption that no player character will break the stated rules in order to play a true blooded character, but even in that case it should be made clear for NPCs.

In any case, the only mention of anyone, regardless of his or her bloodline strength or status possibly being required to take a template is that of a proven Roele heir, which sets the bar pretty high for a requierment. I assume the Gorgon has this template. If the Gorgon does not have this template, there is certainly no good case for someone else being forced to take it. Even if he does, it's beyond unusual for a PC to be forced to take a template, regardless of possible excessive permissiveness on the part of the DM.

The border where the template goes from being possible to being required should be made clear. While Mikal's character is certainly possibly very famous, his fame is obviously less great, in either the early days or in the present, than a Roele heir. If the borderline is a true bloodline, that needs to be made explicit.

I never stated that True required a Great Heritage template - I said that IMO all True bloodlines should have it because the definitions of both are very similar in respect to legends.

As far as Mikal's character goes - he went into hiding and changed derivations from Anduiras to Azrai. Seems like justtification enough to "lose it" to me.

The Great Heritage template can only be added to a scion with the DM’s permission. It is a reflection of the character’s high status and regard in relation to those he/she rules. In order to have the template a scion must either be a descendent of a legendary bloodline or perform acts of sufficient proportion that the scion is elevated to epic proportions (not to be confused with epic level). Tales of his deeds are spread far and wide by the bards. Due to the very public nature of this template a scion cannot hide his presence and must be a highly visible leader. A character who presumes to be the long lost descendant of the Roele bloodline would not automatically have this template, although if it could be proven that he was indeed the legitimate heir then during the public proclamation of this acknowledgement he would gain the template.

Since fame is a fleeting thing it is also possible to lose this template by actions or inaction. If a regent losses a number of significant battles or many of his holdings then the faith of the followers will be lost as will the template.

My other point was that being a regent of a domain, even forming one, isn't sufficent to give the character enough fame and respect across the culture to give the GH template.

The Gorgon was a great general and leader (hugely so on the Azrai side) - sufficient justification for GH, IMO.

Roube - was a great general with the elves (well before Deismaar, especially in the gheallie Sidh so he has a lot of "respect" from the elves, well at least some of them and other factors as well. And except for the fact that elven society doesn't really correlate with GH that much he could have it.

The Spider was the greatest general of the goblins (and hence goblinoids) and thus a case could also be made for him to have GH. Again how structured are goblinoids with respect to heritage? The Spider may or may not have it, it depends on how goblinoid society is viewed with respect to "heritage".

[Danny_Cline]

I never stated that True required a Great Heritage template - I said that IMO all True bloodlines should have it because the definitions of both are very similar in respect to legends.

As far as Mikal's character goes - he went into hiding and changed derivations from Anduiras to Azrai. Seems like justtification enough to "lose it" to me.

It certainly does seem like plenty of justification. However, my point was not about whether the character would lose the Great Heritage template but that true bloodlines need not match 100% to Great Heritage templates. Actually, your statement above kind of illustrates my point. A True blooded character can lose the template through action or inaction. Likewise then, a True blooded character should be able to not pick it up in the first place through action or inaction (for example, by vanishing immediately after Diesmaar). One thing that I did miss in the long thread was that apparently the character in question already did have the Great Heritage template, so at least for this character that point is moot.

So sorry about that.

However:

In fact, there is an oversight that says that

"Only those with major or great bloodline strengths can have the Great Heritage template."

If you notice the BRCS (sanctioned chap 2) is written such that PCs don't have True bloodlines. True isn't on the random table (2-2).

I get that, certainly, but that isn't really my concern with the template's wording. If the template can be applied to NPCs in addition to PCs, the requirements need to be expanded even if the DM is strict with the rule against PCs with True bloodlines, as it seems likely that NPCs with True bloodlines will have the template. For example:

The Gorgon was a great general and leader (hugely so on the Azrai side) - sufficient justification for GH, IMO.

Roube - was a great general with the elves (well before Deismaar, especially in the gheallie Sidh so he has a lot of "respect" from the elves, well at least some of them and other factors as well. And except for the fact that elven society doesn't really correlate with GH that much he could have it.

The Spider was the greatest general of the goblins (and hence goblinoids) and thus a case could also be made for him to have GH. Again how structured are goblinoids with respect to heritage? The Spider may or may not have it, it depends on how goblinoid society is viewed with respect to "heritage".

[irdeggman]

It certainly does seem like plenty of justification. However, my point was not about whether the character would lose the Great Heritage template but that true bloodlines need not match 100% to Great Heritage templates. Actually, your statement above kind of illustrates my point. A True blooded character can lose the template through action or inaction. Likewise then, a True blooded character should be able to not pick it up in the first place through action or inaction (for example, by vanishing immediately after Diesmaar). One thing that I did miss in the long thread was that apparently the character in question already did have the Great Heritage template, so at least for this character that point is moot.

What I meant was that a character who gained a True bloodline at Deismaar should have had the GH template since the two go together. This does not mean that over the years the character's actions couldn't force him to lose the template.

What isn't clear from Mikal's posting is whether or not his PC had gained the GH template at Deismaar or later after he gained a domain (note that this has been portrayed as having been a substantial amount of time after Deismaar before he gained a domain - it was also aftter he changed derivations from Anduiras to Azrai).

I get that, certainly, but that isn't really my concern with the template's wording. If the template can be applied to NPCs in addition to PCs, the requirements need to be expanded even if the DM is strict with the rule against PCs with True bloodlines, as it seems likely that NPCs with True bloodlines will have the template.

Hmmm I'm not certain this is necessary. The text under GH template doesn't talk about it only applying to PCs. It says "The Great Heritage template can only be added to a scion with the DM’s permission."

So the DM controls its application and not the players.

The DM has total control over NPCs so he/she can assign it as fitting.


Now when Chap 9 is redone the Gorgon should have the GH template assigned as the default, IMO - but that chapter isn't finalized nor has it been redone yet.

The chapter also needs to include scion class levels too, which aren't done yet.Also the DM has control over his/her game so if the DM decides that he/she wishes to run True bloodlines differently then there is no text written that will "force" the issue - nor should there be. Everythign I have said is based on the current rules text and the intent of the writing of the rules (with some specific opinions, but they are pointed out as such) - these can not "force" a DM to make any changes to their game - nor should they.

[Mikal]

What I meant was that a character who gained a True bloodline at Deismaar should have had the GH template since the two go together. This does not mean that over the years the character's actions couldn't force him to lose the template.

What isn't clear from Mikal's posting is whether or not his PC had gained the GH template at Deismaar or later after he gained a domain (note that this has been portrayed as having been a substantial amount of time after Deismaar before he gained a domain - it was also aftter he changed derivations from Anduiras to Azrai).

I apologize for the confusion. The character gained it after changing derivations, when he formed his private/mercenary army and starting gaining his reputation from that. While the people realize he has a powerful bloodline, they assume he is a more contemporary being, i.e. that he wasnt at desimarr. A brilliant tactician (lots of ranks in lead/warcraft), he lead a popular revolt in Diemed due to the inept/corrupt rulin of that land, taking it over with a highly popular front.


on a sidenote, Irdeg could you email me at mike_castaldo@yahoo.com? i cant access the webpage from my home computer. thanks.

[dalor]

I don`t know about you guys...but this is confusing to
me without seperation of the different peoples
writing. I was following along; but it is too
confusing to enjoy like I was now.


Anthony Edwards

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> message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
>
http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3008
>
> wrote:
> It comes down to how you envision bloodlines
> themselves.
>
> If you are merely dropping bloodlines into a game
> that is not essentially a Birthright "setting" game
> then the history and meaning of bloodline strengths
> and derivations don`t mean much.
>
> If you are using the "setting" itself it has an
> entirely different reference. Bloodlines are more
> than just a means of getting blood abilities. That
> is also the call of all bloodlines - to be a regent
> and ruler. Bloodlines are more than just the ability
> to "have cool abilities". The greater the derivation
> strength the greater the call - see Book of Regency
> for some descriptions of how this works and the
> signature blood abilities discussion.
>
> Except that not all blooded beings have a call to
> rule. They MAY have a call to do great or evil
> deeds, but not all scions are rulers of people. If
> you notice, I DID channel the call of the
> bloodlines, as a seeker and destroyer of evil,
> rather then a shepard. And eventually the character
> DID become a ruler, so the point you`re trying to
> make is moot.
>
> The adventure "Seeking Bloodsilver" and see what has
> been written about how the Gorgon seeks bloodlines
> (and tighmaervral). Read just about anything written
> in the 2nd ed material to get how the Gorgon feels
> the Iron throne and his “brothers”. The Sword of
> Roele adventure has some on this specifically and
> the novel the Iron Throne also paints the picture of
> the events that transpired.
>
> That`s nice. Again, doesn`t mean he`s going to have
> a magic spider sense that tingles whenever a blooded
> being is around. Especially when said blooded being
> is constantly moving, not only through countries but
> through continents, as the character`s spent time in
> ALL the lands at one point or another.
>
>

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[dalor]

I find no need to bash any setting while talking about
Birthright. Forgotten Realms has HUGE scope and room
for anything you can think of...while Greyhawk is a
typical "medieval" setting. They both have favor in
my eyes...just as Birthright is an awesome setting;
that has down points as well.

Birthright would be a much better setting (for me) if
one thing hadn`t been done: placing the Gorgon in a
ring of mountains from which he marches to conquer and
slay: too Tolkienish for me (although how many evil
baddies end up being somewhat like Sauron eh?). It IS
a great setting though...and quite possibly my
favorite.

For a 3.5 setting...it gets even better. I`m all in
favor of a character who starts as a fighter but finds
himself with all sorts of classes based on campaign
events. He finds himself the ruler of...lets say
Diemed. After less than a few months of court
intrigue...who WOULDN`T need to become a rogue for all
the skulking, subterfuge and backstabbing! On
campaign the character finds favor with the Orthodox
Imperial Temple of Haelyn while fighting against
Avanil who has a rival faction of the Haelynites in
his pocket. To curry greater favor from the temple,
he actually initiates himself as a Cleric; which he
plans to use as a means to exert greater control over
the church. Aspiring to greatness (as well as get RID
of so many Haelynites that are trying to control him)
the character decides to call for a Crusade in unity
with the Orthodox Imperial Temple...and heads off to
the barbaric lands of Rjurik to win converts and
reclaim some fictional icon lost there ages ago in war
against the heathens. Many seasons of campaign in
distant lands finds the character firmly in need of a
few Ranger levels to better deal with the locals`
abilities to outwit his armies in the wilderness...

See where it all goes? All sorts of reasons for
characters to take any number of classes...I`ve seen a
Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Ranger/Wizard before. While I
wouldn`t do it (it is my firm believe that a 10th
level wizard would hose a 5/5 Fighter/Wizard); doesn`t
mean that a character may do all sorts of things for
various reasons...especially in Birthright!

By the way...is this even about Dragons anymore? LOL

More on topic of dragons: I loved the idea of dragons
who breathe a poisonous venom that is aflame! I
created dragons that require a save vs poison seperate
from the flaming venom/acid that they breathe.


Anthony Edwards

--- "Birthright.net Message Boards"
<brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> wrote:
> IMO FR is the worst of all "settings" to use as a
> basis for what constitutes a "setting.
>
> Fair enough (though I might offer Greyhawk as even
> worse).

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[Lee]

In a message dated 7/22/06 2:37:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dalor_darden@YAHOO.COM writes:

<< By the way...is this even about Dragons anymore? LOL

More on topic of dragons: >>

Going back to dragons... (Glad the mailing list is back up!)
I`ve kept them rare and wonderful by not showing them directly in any of
the three games (all non-regent) I`ve run in BR. In the last one, they found a
dragon`s skeleton in the Shadow World. Most of the party were suitably
impressed ("oooh, aaaah")-- they really didn`t want to explore any further-- "If
something killed that dragon, whatever it was could eat us up!" The exception:
our one munchkin player, who started looking around for small bones and claws
he might convert to magic items or cash-- he nearly got killed by running on
ahead of the rest of the more-cautious party.
When they later hiked into the mountains Vore Lekinisky lives under, they
were really nervous, and ready to run. An earthquake really gave them the
willies (again, except the power-gamer).

Lee.