The whole blooded regents thing doesnt really make sense if you think about it

[Magian]

Creating a 0 level holding in 2e and the 3e conversion only cost 1GB, no RP is involved with the cost of create holding actions. RP comes into play when supporting or opposing the action and if further down the line a rule action is used. But, the problem of how a non-blooded rules in this domain system is a good question.

My first instinct is to come up with a cost system for domain actions with a sort of RP converted to GB cost to actions. Therefore, I look at the payroll section of the 2e rulebook and find the conversion of 5RP to 1GB value in paying for your military units for maintenance. Then it is simply apply the allowed domain system supports and oppositions to the roll for success. I don't think a non-blooded regent would have RP, obviously. RP is simply put an ability that blooded regents have to help the success of their rule. Beyond that, perhaps there are some other fixes that I haven't considered in this post to make non-blooded realms work. But their ability to support their success is limited to say for example, holding level bonus for rule holding. So, I think a little bit of tweaking can make it work out with not too much effort.

RP does not necessitate mind control. This is stuff of divine power and influence, honor and glory. This stuff is a mover and shaker, motivator and persuader of the masses to follow people that demonstrate having these qualities that are the stuff of great virtue and terrible vice. In this game world it is a stuff that is part of reality and I would dare to say important enough for people to be inspired for many millennia. Take a modern musician who performs a song that stays with someone all their life and takes them back to that day they were young and in a special time. It inspires them to recall fondly of a thing, is that mind control? I doubt it. With the RP it is simply more of that sort of thing more intense and powerful. Like in the Bible there are many instances of things that demonstrate divine things before mortals. There are a great many mortals that oppose those things and are enemies of the divine. Nope no mind control there. One of my favorite movies Excalibur from 1981 is about a version of King Arthur. I believe many of the principles of this movie inspired the rules of this game, that is why I find it relevant. When young Arthur first pulls out the sword from the stone many of the warlords contest and deny his claim to being King. But through his wisdom, honor, and courage he wins his enemies over through an act that stands out to me in battle that even baffles Merlin. The sword of power Excalibur and the bloodline of Pendragon all play into this king's connection to the land, which is one of the mysteries mentioned at the resolution of a key point in the story. Again I don't see mind control.

Much of what you get into further in the post breaks down the domain system itself. It is a set of rules that are an abstraction so that we can have a management system that I believe scales well for the AD&D medieval setting, albeit at some point it becomes cumbersome to handle if you branch out in scope of how much you run in your campaign all at once. It is understandable to want to have an explanation for some things over the course of play for roleplay purposes. However, I don't think it serves us well to get caught up in a mire of over examination of what the abstract is glossing over. The domain system serves its function to provide us with the illusion of being movers and shakers in a fantasy setting. I think it does that well and with our imaginations we can step in and out of that abstraction and detail what we want when we want. So, all the examples you use to describe the domain system are abstracted in the rules already as numbers and how we use those numbers for support or opposition to actions. Clearly the blooded regents have a huge advantage. I think the only real value we'd get from stepping away from the abstract domain system is to flesh out adventures. The domain system in my opinion simplifies the governing structures and interactions of individuals so we don't have to worry about them, unless that is what you want to do.

Divestiture strips a ruler's connection to his/her land, (pg 52 2e Rulebook) not a holding and not a contest action. The rules use terms that are political, legal and relevant to how things operate. Much of the contest action is a legal sort of action. Black's Law dictionary: "To make defense to an adverse claim in a court of law; to oppose, resist, or dispute the case made by a plaintiff." Much of investiture is as well with a little political legitimacy going on there. There is also religious ideas as well with the cleric being involved too. It is there for a light version of medieval flavor I believe. I think it suffices.

[AndrewTall]

I guess it depends on how they actually do it. So lets say Bob has a level 2 or 3 law holding in a level 4 province. Joe sends some agents, lets assume they set up a level 0 holding and nobody notices. Maybe its a handful of guys hiding in a cave or something.

Then Joe decides to rule his law holding to level 1. Bob is unblooded, so he doesn't get to spend RP to contest it, and is not automatically informed. So Joe wants to recruit enough people to affect 1/4th of the province's law...whether they be private guards, mercs or bandits, you obviously need more people and money involved.

So Joe's agents go out there and starts recruiting guards/mercs/bandits/whatever, bringing in weapons and other supplies, bringing in gold to pay these people, etc. At this point, couldn't Bob's guards notice this, and stop it? Sure, Joe is spending RP to make it succeed, but how does that prevent Bob's guards from doing anything about it?

How about this, Joe gives lectures on law to the police explaining that political interference they are getting is unlawful, or gives strong moral speeches and holds rallies that convince judges and police officers that some laws matter more than others - at some point "Bob's guards" are listening more to Joe than to Bob.

Or in BR terms Joe talks to intermediate nobles (baronet's and such like) and persuades them to support him / take advice from him - then their goons are his goons, not Bob's - a change in who controls the law holding with zero recruitment or strife, just a little persuasion.

BR is a feudal system, not a democracy, but people remain people, and every organisation has its factions, internal sub-leaders, etc - I see contesting domains, ruling up/down, etc to be about the switching of allegiances and influence much more than people being killed, migrating in, etc - this is easiest to see in guild domains, but law and temple domains aren't that hard to see either.

The problem is, for non-magical holdings, this IS a human-human interaction. If i want to recruit 100 guards, i need to assign people to go out there, recruit these people, pay them, equip them, etc. The land is not doing it on my behalf, its all human grunt work. And im having a hard time understanding how the land is helping my agents to do this. I can understand spending RP to forge a stronger magical connection to the land, that much is easy to visualize.

Bloodline is basically how divine the character is, spending RP is like spending divine influence, a mixture of luck, how persuasive people sound, how the general populace feels represented by the regent and how much they unconsciously are biased towards them, etc, etc.

But spending RP to succeed at recruiting guards doesnt make sense, unless its some kind of "luck" thing. Maybe spending RP causes my recruiters to get lucky, and they just happen to find a group of retired mercenaries or adventurers who have contacts and are interested in the job offer. If i dont spend the RP, then maybe my recruiters cant find anyone who qualifies.

Maybe spending RP gives a bonus to persuasion/etc rolls and so Joe is able to persuade "Bob's" junior baronet that Joe is the man to listen to and thereby allow Joe to assume control (by influence if not technically by lawful right).

The original rules dont allow that though, you need to spend RP to contest a holding, and unblooded characters dont have RP. So unblooded characters in the original rules can't do anything except use military force, which requires at least 1 company of soldiers, to go out there and shut down a holding.

If the soldiers obey orders - the classic one here is the soldiers listening to the local priest, or an intermediate lord, rather than the ultimate legal authority. But you are right, the unblooded should have some RP mechanically - I take the view that all characters should be able to collect a total based on level, charisma, and then bloodline, and could store a multiple of it - which still gave blooded characters a massive advantage but allowed the mechanics to cover both blooded and unblodded.

The way its described, the Hand of Azrai is not really a regent, but merely a "manager". She has blooded priests under her that actually collect the RP from the temple holdings, since she can't collect RP. She's just the overseer put in charge by the Gorgon. And im guessing that most of the time they send all their RP to the Gorgon.

She should be blooded, and the Gorgon's domain should be entirely run by vassals - the Gorgon is not a micro-manager, he is a "take care of it and pay me my dues - or die" kind of ruler.

[Fizz]

Hand of Azrai ... should be blooded, and the Gorgon's domain should be entirely run by vassals - the Gorgon is not a micro-manager, he is a "take care of it and pay me my dues - or die" kind of ruler.

Mechanical issues aside, personally i like the notion that the Hand of Azrai is not blooded yet has her domain. Sometimes it's the stuff that goes outside the regular rules that makes things intriguing. It makes "how is that possible?" into an adventure hook, rather than just chalking it up to an editing error. But everyone's mileage varies on that sort of thing.


-Fizz

[Sorontar]

Just remember that if a non-blooded regent can "buy" RP, then so can a blooded regent.

Sorontar

[Delazar]

The question is also, how did they rule Domains before Deismaar? There were no Bloodlines, so no Regency Points.

I would agree that there must be a way for the un-blooded to rule a domain. The idea mentioned above (X GB = Y RP) is an easy way to solve this, I like it.

It's just easier for scions, because they have two pools of resources (RP and GB) to draw from. Which makes sense to me.

[Fizz]

To account for non-blooded rulers, what if the RP collection rule just be amended so that there is a minimum value? For example, what if all regents, blooded or not, collect a minimum of 1 RP. Or maybe the minimum should be equal to their Charisma modifier (or some other combination from their stats)?

To me, this feels like the most simple solution. Non-blooded rulers can then exert some influence, but will never have the gravitas that an established blooded ruler has.


-Fizz

[Magian]

To account for non-blooded rulers, what if the RP collection rule just be amended so that there is a minimum value? For example, what if all regents, blooded or not, collect a minimum of 1 RP. Or maybe the minimum should be equal to their Charisma modifier (or some other combination from their stats)?

To me, this feels like the most simple solution. Non-blooded rulers can then exert some influence, but will never have the gravitas that an established blooded ruler has.


-Fizz

A more complicated idea though never made anything up, I've mulled over a renown system that works for unblooded characters. Something to the effect of a lesser form of currency like the coin exchanges of the game e.g. 10 renown = 1 regency. Renown system would be linked to adventure rewards maybe tied to how much exp or some other thing like DC for 3e +. Perhaps 100 or 1000 exp = 1 renown, however a person wanted to work it. Regardless of how it is implemented, it would take care of the question by the OP about unblooded regents.

[AndrewTall]

Mechanical issues aside, personally i like the notion that the Hand of Azrai is not blooded yet has her domain. Sometimes it's the stuff that goes outside the regular rules that makes things intriguing. It makes "how is that possible?" into an adventure hook, rather than just chalking it up to an editing error. But everyone's mileage varies on that sort of thing.


-Fizz

True, but its a terribly inefficient temple domain if it gains no RP and can't cast realm spells. Maybe she has a scion who is the official ruler, but the Gorgon has placed the Hand in authority over the scion? Then the Hand can spend RP, etc via her lieutenant/vassal and likewise cast realm spells while being unblooded.

But in that case why doesn't she just harvest the bloodline from a goblin scion? The blood of Azrai hs corrupted the hydra, wolf and boar from previously unblooded animals, so she should be able to get a bloodline easily enough.

[Fizz]

True, but its a terribly inefficient temple domain if it gains no RP and can't cast realm spells. Maybe she has a scion who is the official ruler, but the Gorgon has placed the Hand in authority over the scion? Then the Hand can spend RP, etc via her lieutenant/vassal and likewise cast realm spells while being unblooded.

But in that case why doesn't she just harvest the bloodline from a goblin scion? The blood of Azrai hs corrupted the hydra, wolf and boar from previously unblooded animals, so she should be able to get a bloodline easily enough.

That is the hypothesis that is on the wiki, as i recall- several under-priests that with low blood scores that do the work. Ruins of Empire say that the Hand of Azrai must not be blooded, because if she were the Gorgon would have slain her for her bloodline a long time ago. So would not the Hand's vassals / lieutenants suffer the same fate?

So is there another mechanism by which she could gain RP? Has perhaps the Gorgon found a way to pass RP to a non-blooded priest for them to cast realm-spells? That way, the Gorgon gains the benefit of priestly realm spells, but without the risk of a potential rival. Since the Gorgon controls the RP the Hand receives, she can be quickly neutralized. That's a good deal for the Gorgon.


-Fizz

[Fizz]

Another hypothesis to explain the Hand of Azrai...

Some post-Deismaar artifacts grant bloodline strength points. In particular, the sielshegh gems described in The Book of Magecraft grants bloodline points. Strictly speaking, they only work for scions. So perhaps the Hand actually has a tainted bloodline with a minimal score, but is in possession of one or more sielshegh gems or an artifact comprised of such, giving her a sufficient score to cast some serious priestly realm magic.

Or perhaps there is another artifact that effectively grants a bloodline to a non-scion, and in conjuction with some sielshegh gems, makes her a potent realm spellcaster. In other words, maybe the Hand of Azrai isn't anything special herself, but she owns some potent items, which she is allowed to keep (with her life) so long as she serves The Gorgon.

Personally, I like these options more than the under-priests concept. That'd make a great adventure- hurting the Gorgon by relieving the Hand of her artifacts... epic stuff.

-Fizz