The whole blooded regents thing doesnt really make sense if you think about it

[Question]

I mean, it kind of makes sense for some stuff like casting realm spells or managing source holdings but for ruling a domain...not really.

Just look at IRL. Obviously, none of the rulers IRL have mystical bloodlines and they rule a country just fine.

You shouldn't need a bloodline to setup some kind of police force which translates to a law holding. But per game rules, you do. Something as simple as a law 0 holding, which signifies the foundation for a police/guard system, requires RP (per the original AD&D rules at least). When that can be easily done by just assigning someone to work on it (by recruiting guards, paying them, etc). Nothing about that requires a mystical connection to the land at all, and i dont see how having a mystical connection to the land would somehow improve your guards's ability to police crime, unless your guards automatically gain super powers.

And before people had blood lines, societies had all this stuff...guards, guilds, etc, they didnt need bloodlines to make them work.

So lets say Bob who is an unblooded province ruler hires like 100 guards or something. Does this count as a law holding? Apparently not, because he cant create or rule holdings without spending RP. But they do keep law and order in the town. So what do they count as?

Then lets say Joe, a blooded regent from next door comes in and says he wants to make a level 0 law holding in Bob's province. OK. But how does that even work? Bob could just tell his guards to arrest Joe's people who are trying to setup their own guards. How does Joe spending RP to improve his success chance prevent Bob's guards from just walking into their office and arresting everyone before deporting them? Unless spending RP is using some kind of mind control power to make Bob's guards switch sides, i just don't see how this would work without Joe sending troops in and conquering the province normally.

Actually, from the way things are described, it feels like blooded regents do have some kind of mind control power. Think about it, rule a level 0 temple holding to level 1, and X% of the province now worships your god in your temples within a 3 month period (1 turn). The people in the province dont get to say no.

And with the way blood theft works, it seems like rearing blooded children like cattle for blood theft purposes would be common (especially by the Gorgon). Slave traders would kidnap blooded individuals (not all blooded ones would be powerful nobles with guards) and force them to produce blooded off spring, which would be sold off to people wanting to blood theft them.

[Fizz]

I seem to remember a discussion about this, perhaps not overly long ago. But i can't find it at a quick glance.

If i recall correctly, the consensus (or at least a possibility) is that you don't need to have a divine bloodline to rule a realm. But, having one greatly assists in doing so. Having a bloodline means you can expend regency points to improve the odds of accomplishing tasks. But a character without a bloodline does not gain regency points. Thus, blooded rulers will eventually (quickly) become dominant and non-blooded regents will be very rare.

I'm sure someone else can find the full thread of that discussion.

-Fizz

[Question]

Yea, the problem with the whole regency thing is that it only really works if spending RP = mind controling the populace.

So to setup a law holding, you obviously need people to put the systems in place for it...guards need to be recruited, they need to be paid/equipped/housed, there needs to be a barracks and all that stuff...which means to setup a law holding you need to send people into the province to do all that.

But success rate is not guaranteed to make a holding and you are expected to spend RP to make it succeed. For non-blooded rulers, they cant spend RP, so they just randomly fail when they try to setup a guard system or do anything simple?

And then someone else comes in and wants to make a law holding, how can it even work if their agents are turned away at the border or deported? How does regency somehow make it succeed?

To use a simple example, i might be a blooded character, but there is no way i can setup my own police department in New York because they would just arrest either me or my agents who are trying to recruit my private police force. Unless the RP im spending somehow mind controls the cops to switch sides while also mind controlling everyone who tries to get in my way.

Im also confused at how contesting is supposed to work. If its severing the mystical connection to a holding for a blooded regent, OK...but if its a non-blooded regent, theres no mystical connection to sever, so what are you doing exactly?

[Sorontar]

Any non-blooded person may (by the grace of the DM) become blooded by the Land's Choice. Normally this would be because of the death of someone who is blooded, as an alternate to the heir to bloodline, but I am sure a DM could work out what happens if the land decides that a regent no longer has a strong enough connection to a holding for it to be level N. The DM may decide that the challenge from a non-blooded rival reduced the holding to N-1, but that just might mean that now there is space for a holding 1 (or promotion of another holding), not that the space is filled. You could then play all sorts of methods, like shadow holdings becoming less shadowy, or the non-blooded rival becoming a psuedo-regent that only has financial assets not any political or social regency. Of course, they may have allies who are blooded and prefer a weaker non-blooded leader being in place who can be manipulated easier.

Alternatively, the DM may decide that the land decides that the blooded regent actually loses one or two of their blood points to the rival, making the rival blooded. This would have to be very rare and under exceptional circumstances, but Birthright in the land
of myths and miracles.

Not all of this is necessarily in the Book of Regency or the rulebook (I haven't looked at these aspects for a while), but to me they sound reasonable within the power of the DM.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

Yea, the problem with the whole regency thing is that it only really works if spending RP = mind controling the populace.

I object to calling it "mind controlling". It's all about persuasian through reasoned arguments. Isn't that how modern politics works? Lol.

So to setup a law holding, you obviously need people to put the systems in place for it...guards need to be recruited, they need to be paid/equipped/housed, there needs to be a barracks and all that stuff...which means to setup a law holding you need to send people into the province to do all that.

I don't think a holding has to be anything so formal. Heck a basement lair could be your holding. Or you don't even need a physical locale- i think a holding can be as simple as the underlying structure of the organization.

But success rate is not guaranteed to make a holding and you are expected to spend RP to make it succeed. For non-blooded rulers, they cant spend RP, so they just randomly fail when they try to setup a guard system or do anything simple?

Things are difficult when you don't have the Land's Favor.

And then someone else comes in and wants to make a law holding, how can it even work if their agents are turned away at the border or deported? How does regency somehow make it succeed?

It's like any startup, but usually a large holding only worries about threats to it. There may be dozens of 0-level law holdings in a province, but the dominant one doesn't have enough actions in a domain round to quash them all. And why bother- they can't do much yet. They only worry if they start to grow.

To use a simple example, i might be a blooded character, but there is no way i can setup my own police department in New York because they would just arrest either me or my agents who are trying to recruit my private police force. Unless the RP im spending somehow mind controls the cops to switch sides while also mind controlling everyone who tries to get in my way.

Not a police department, but you could set up a local neighborhood watch, Then maybe that grows into more neighborhoods. That would count as a small law holding, and the police may not care- may even welcome it as it frees up their resources (actions, regency points) for other things.

I'm just spitballing here to illustrate that there are conceivable ways things can happen. Holdings are very broad categories that at their core only represent influence.

Im also confused at how contesting is supposed to work. If its severing the mystical connection to a holding for a blooded regent, OK...but if its a non-blooded regent, theres no mystical connection to sever, so what are you doing exactly?

Contesting doesn't necessarily mean direct conflict in the conventional sense. To "contest" means you are vying for more influence. So if the police decided to quash the neighborhood watch, then they could do so. But they probably have better things to spend their regency and actions. If both holdings are working towards the same goal (say reducing crime), then why would they quash it?

Or maybe the police say you can keep your neighborhood watch, just check with them on things. So they give up the holding in your favor in a classic feudal fashion. If your goal is to ulimately replace the police, that would be a long difficult slog (as it should be).

Again, i think there are lots of ways to justify it, because to "contest" a holding is a broad term that might invovle dozens of events and hundreds of people over a timespan of months, all in the background of the domain turn. I think there is a lot of room for fudging these things. In the end, if you as DM think that this small holding has a fraction of the influence, the owner should have that fraction of the total holdings. If it makes sense for the story, then bypass the rules if need be.


-Fizz

[Question]

I object to calling it "mind controlling". It's all about persuasian through reasoned arguments. Isn't that how modern politics works? Lol.



I don't think a holding has to be anything so formal. Heck a basement lair could be your holding. Or you don't even need a physical locale- i think a holding can be as simple as the underlying structure of the organization.



Things are difficult when you don't have the Land's Favor.



-Fizz

The thing is, a guard system needs a lot of systems in place. You need people to recruit, train, pay and equip guards. My understanding is that a level 1 holding in a level 4 province basically means your law covers about 25% of the province. And nobody is going to tolerate somone else coming in and setting up their own law. We are not talking about a neighbourhood watch here but actual guards, armed and armored, going on patrol, arresting criminals, etc. No ruler would be crazy enough to let someone else waltz in to do that, unless they had sworn loyalty to the ruler and am effectively some kind of mercenary force or vassal working for said ruler.

So as i said, thats a lot of work, whats stopping the existing guards from just stopping your agents from setting all that up? Doesnt matter how much RP you spend if your agents are deported before they can do anything.

Why does land's favor even matter here? I am not doing anything with the land, this is all human - human interaction. If i want to hire a carpenter to build me a house, regency is irrelevant. If i want to hire guards, regency should be irrelevant. I am not interacting with the land in any way. Its not like im praying for good harvests or weather or whatever.

As for contests, i see it as cutting off the mystical link to the land, thats why only blooded regents can do it, and why it requires RP. If a non blooded regent wants to shut down a holding, they would have to occupy it with troops i guess, which isnt a contest action.

[Fizz]

The thing is, a guard system needs a lot of systems in place. You need people to recruit, train, pay and equip guards. My understanding is that a level 1 holding in a level 4 province basically means your law covers about 25% of the province.

A level 1 holding in a level 4 province means that you control about 25% of the law. That is- the people responsible for enforcement, etc, ultimately answer to you. But that doesn't mean it's a police force. There are many ways that influence can be exerted.

And nobody is going to tolerate somone else coming in and setting up their own law. We are not talking about a neighbourhood watch here but actual guards, armed and armored, going on patrol, arresting criminals, etc.

I think you are being too literal in what 'law' means. If the watch is stopping crime, through whatever method, then it does count as a law holding- it is affecting the town/city/country, whatever. My neighbourhood watch is one such example. Another example could be a thieves' guild- scaring the populace into submission and preventing the police from ratting on them, etc, so they effectively hold law because the people (willing or not) answer to them.

If you read the definition of law holding: When a law holding is controlled by a regent hostile to the province ruler, that holding represents banditry and direct undermining of the law of the land.

No ruler would be crazy enough to let someone else waltz in to do that, unless they had sworn loyalty to the ruler and am effectively some kind of mercenary force or vassal working for said ruler.

Vassalage is a possibility, but so is just having an ally. A regent gets 3 domain actions, right? So two regents sharing the law have a total of 6 domain actions, so they potentially can get more done in a power-sharing arrangement if their interests are aligned.

So as i said, thats a lot of work, whats stopping the existing guards from just stopping your agents from setting all that up? Doesnt matter how much RP you spend if your agents are deported before they can do anything.

The way you've phrased this doesn't appreciate that all this happens "in the background". In your example, the guards would have to know who the agents are, know that they want to start a holding, then stop them at the border. You can't expect every guard to know who the bad guys are or know their intents. That's not realistic, even in our modern world.

No guard is going to say "hey- those guys are setting up a law holding, i'd best stop that and save my king a domain action". Heh.

Why does land's favor even matter here? I am not doing anything with the land, this is all human - human interaction. If i want to hire a carpenter to build me a house, regency is irrelevant. If i want to hire guards, regency should be irrelevant. I am not interacting with the land in any way. Its not like im praying for good harvests or weather or whatever.

Because a blooded regent has the Land's Favor, regardless of what type of holding it is. The "Land's Favor" is a way of referencing that mystical connection between a regent and their domain, that lets them get things done more effectively.

This is not a human-human interaction. This is a regent-domain interaction. It's not asking someone to build a simple house one day. This is a coordinated task requiring interaction of hundreds of people, over multiple levels of hierarchy, all over the realm, across a long duration of time (months). All this requires coordinated effort from the top, which is represented by domain action plus regency points.

As for contests, i see it as cutting off the mystical link to the land, thats why only blooded regents can do it, and why it requires RP. If a non blooded regent wants to shut down a holding, they would have to occupy it with troops i guess, which isnt a contest action.

I don't see ownership of a holding as mystical in and of itself. The mystical connection assists, but is not a requirement for ownership. So personally, i would allow a non-blooded character to contest against a blooded. It'd just be difficult (depending on the blooded's score, of course).

BTW, note that there are examples of non-blooded regents. The Hand of Azrai is specifically noted as being non-blooded, but does have holdings.

-Fizz

[Sorontar]

As Fizz has been suggesting, there are many things that can contribute towards a holding, especially a low level law holding. Maybe the holding is about a set of mercenary guards that are the favourite within the industries. Maybe there is an insurance company that has been set up and penalises those who increase the risk of its clients. Maybe it is a construction firm who will maintain your roads and walls but gets to charge a toll and maintain customs checkpoints. What about a banking system that the province relies on to tax its population. These may seem to be trade related but if they start to become integral in how a province works, they can end up being vital to the security and operation of the legal bureaucracy of the province. Hence they are part of law holdings. It isn't really about how much of the land they control. It is about how much of the society they relate to.

The second consideration is how they would relate to the regent being blooded or not. They could all be controlled without a blooded regent, but one who has regency is more likely to be able to convince the population that the regent is acting in their best interest, or should be feared enough that cooperation is the best way to go. This can still occur for a non-blooded regent, but a blooded regent can achieve those aims easier because the regency gives them the "right vibe" amongst the population.

Sorontar

[Question]

The way you've phrased this doesn't appreciate that all this happens "in the background". In your example, the guards would have to know who the agents are, know that they want to start a holding, then stop them at the border. You can't expect every guard to know who the bad guys are or know their intents. That's not realistic, even in our modern world.

No guard is going to say "hey- those guys are setting up a law holding, i'd best stop that and save my king a domain action". Heh.

I guess it depends on how they actually do it. So lets say Bob has a level 2 or 3 law holding in a level 4 province. Joe sends some agents, lets assume they set up a level 0 holding and nobody notices. Maybe its a handful of guys hiding in a cave or something.

Then Joe decides to rule his law holding to level 1. Bob is unblooded, so he doesn't get to spend RP to contest it, and is not automatically informed. So Joe wants to recruit enough people to affect 1/4th of the province's law...whether they be private guards, mercs or bandits, you obviously need more people and money involved.

So Joe's agents go out there and starts recruiting guards/mercs/bandits/whatever, bringing in weapons and other supplies, bringing in gold to pay these people, etc. At this point, couldn't Bob's guards notice this, and stop it? Sure, Joe is spending RP to make it succeed, but how does that prevent Bob's guards from doing anything about it?

This is not a human-human interaction. This is a regent-domain interaction. It's not asking someone to build a simple house one day. This is a coordinated task requiring interaction of hundreds of people, over multiple levels of hierarchy, all over the realm, across a long duration of time (months). All this requires coordinated effort from the top, which is represented by domain action plus regency points.

The problem is, for non-magical holdings, this IS a human-human interaction. If i want to recruit 100 guards, i need to assign people to go out there, recruit these people, pay them, equip them, etc. The land is not doing it on my behalf, its all human grunt work. And im having a hard time understanding how the land is helping my agents to do this. I can understand spending RP to forge a stronger magical connection to the land, that much is easy to visualize.

But spending RP to succeed at recruiting guards doesnt make sense, unless its some kind of "luck" thing. Maybe spending RP causes my recruiters to get lucky, and they just happen to find a group of retired mercenaries or adventurers who have contacts and are interested in the job offer. If i dont spend the RP, then maybe my recruiters cant find anyone who qualifies.

I don't see ownership of a holding as mystical in and of itself. The mystical connection assists, but is not a requirement for ownership. So personally, i would allow a non-blooded character to contest against a blooded. It'd just be difficult (depending on the blooded's score, of course).

The original rules dont allow that though, you need to spend RP to contest a holding, and unblooded characters dont have RP. So unblooded characters in the original rules can't do anything except use military force, which requires at least 1 company of soldiers, to go out there and shut down a holding.

BTW, note that there are examples of non-blooded regents. The Hand of Azrai is specifically noted as being non-blooded, but does have holdings.

The way its described, the Hand of Azrai is not really a regent, but merely a "manager". She has blooded priests under her that actually collect the RP from the temple holdings, since she can't collect RP. She's just the overseer put in charge by the Gorgon. And im guessing that most of the time they send all their RP to the Gorgon.

[Fizz]

I guess it depends on how they actually do it. So lets say Bob has a level 2 or 3 law holding in a level 4 province. Joe sends some agents, lets assume they set up a level 0 holding and nobody notices. Maybe its a handful of guys hiding in a cave or something.

Then Joe decides to rule his law holding to level 1. Bob is unblooded, so he doesn't get to spend RP to contest it, and is not automatically informed. So Joe wants to recruit enough people to affect 1/4th of the province's law...whether they be private guards, mercs or bandits, you obviously need more people and money involved.

So Joe's agents go out there and starts recruiting guards/mercs/bandits/whatever, bringing in weapons and other supplies, bringing in gold to pay these people, etc. At this point, couldn't Bob's guards notice this, and stop it? Sure, Joe is spending RP to make it succeed, but how does that prevent Bob's guards from doing anything about it?

Domain levels are only approximate measures. So the process could be occuring over many domain turns. The character might fail, or not even attempt, in raising the holding to level 1, but just because it's still 0 doesn't mean it's not growing influence- just hasn't made it to that ~25% margin yet.

Bob's guards don't know what's going on, just like every police officer on the street doesn't know every criminal they walk past. (If they could, there would never be any crime.) If Joe's agents are working against the law, then they are probably doing it surreptitiously, not out with flyers or bullhorns announcing their intent to every loyal guard of Bob.

The problem is, for non-magical holdings, this IS a human-human interaction. If i want to recruit 100 guards, i need to assign people to go out there, recruit these people, pay them, equip them, etc. The land is not doing it on my behalf, its all human grunt work. And im having a hard time understanding how the land is helping my agents to do this. I can understand spending RP to forge a stronger magical connection to the land, that much is easy to visualize.

By that definition, then you are saying that most domain actions are bunk, because the vast majority of them involve human-human interaction, whether it's espionage or setting up a trade route.

No, each of these is still a regent-domain interaction. It may involve people, but the fact that it involves many people at many different levels of hierarchy is was makes it a domain action. The regent isn't going out on his own and recruiting individuals directly (if he did, that'd be an adventure action, and is resolved separately).

But generally the regent makes his wishes known, he tells his lieutenants, who tells the regional leaders (mayors, perhaps), who inform the sherrifs who actually gets the information to the guards and officers. Most domain actions are like this- they involve people. It's a governmental effort.

Another way of thinking about it: consider domain actions as separate adventures that are being carried out by the underlings of the regent, but in the background. The regent supplies "support" in the form of RP, which can represent many things, whatever you want.

But spending RP to succeed at recruiting guards doesnt make sense, unless its some kind of "luck" thing. Maybe spending RP causes my recruiters to get lucky, and they just happen to find a group of retired mercenaries or adventurers who have contacts and are interested in the job offer. If i dont spend the RP, then maybe my recruiters cant find anyone who qualifies.

No luck is needed. If a regent makes something a top priority, then he spends a lot of RP, representing not only his but his underling's efforts. A few RP spent means the regent is saying "no biggie, let's do if it we can, but not a top priority", versus spending all available RP which says "this is vital to the realm, and if it's not done, heads are going to roll".

And no it's not just about how the regent phrases things, but the allocation of resources, rallying the underlings, following up on events, etc etc. It all happens in the background. Like i said, think of them as background adventures for the npc's.

The original rules dont allow that though, you need to spend RP to contest a holding, and unblooded characters dont have RP. So unblooded characters in the original rules can't do anything except use military force, which requires at least 1 company of soldiers, to go out there and shut down a holding.

Well, i would say they can contest, but they don't have RP to spend. Non-blooded characters don't have the "gravitas", that link to the domain, that makes their efforts so much more effective. So they can make the effort but "spend" 0 RP (just as a regent can choose to spend 0 RP, if they want). So their success depends on whether the regent has any remaining RP to resist their efforts.

Also remember- it's never going to be a simple case of regent vs upstart commoner. The regent is also defending the border from goblin hoards, dealing with trade disputes, trying to forge a peace between others, fighting the corrupt thieves' guild, and trying to prevent a hostile priest from swaying his people to an evil god. In many cases, that's how 0-level holdings succeed- because the regent has to put his energy (RP) towards more serious threats. There is a lot going on when running a domain!

The way its described, the Hand of Azrai is not really a regent, but merely a "manager". She has blooded priests under her that actually collect the RP from the temple holdings, since she can't collect RP. She's just the overseer put in charge by the Gorgon. And im guessing that most of the time they send all their RP to the Gorgon.

But she's the one that makes the decisions- that's why she has the holdings. Note that the description of being a manager is only something that was added to the online wiki- it is not described anywhere in the core material.


-Fizz