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Thread: Ley Line Question
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03-02-2006, 10:56 PM #1
Ley Line Question
From BRCS 3,5:
"A mage can only forge ley lines from a province in which he holds a source (the initial province), but the mage does not have to have a source in the terminal province to which the ley line connects. Ley lines can be forged over any overland distance. A ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water."
It's a different solution than original BRCS.
1. Why a mage does not have to have a source in the terminal province to which the ley line connects?
Doubt: Can Rhoubhe connect his Rhoubhe province with City of Anuire and raze it by Raze realm spell (I assume he choose a time, when Dosiere & Co. have no RP)?
2. Why Ley lines can be forged over any overland distance?
Can I connect a Taeghas and Vosgaard with single Ley Line?
Doubt: There will be a mess of crossing ley lines on the map.
3. Why a ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water?
Why I can connect unlimited (as I understood) overland distances and i can't connect unlimited water distances?
Doubt: Why there are no sea Sources? Sea is wildest and untouched by civilization area than many other terrains?
Thanks for help.
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03-03-2006, 04:30 PM #2
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Ley Line Question
In a message dated 3/2/06 4:56:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:
<< 3. Why a ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water?
Why I can connect unlimited (as I understood) overland distances and i can`t
connect unlimited water distances?
Doubt: Why there are no sea Sources? Sea is wildest and untouched by
civilization area than many other terrains? >>
I can`t answer the middle one, but I`d suspect the other questions is
answered best by the sea being so unexplored and alien to Cerilia`s air-breathing
mages that a ley line would have to have a major adjustment to go beyond that
distance. 150 miles might be the extent of the continental shelf, so a ley
line can be run as long as the sea bottom (that is, "land") is within a few
hundred feet of the caster, but once the bottom drops away to miles deep, he
cannot maintain contact with the mebhaigl.
I`ve often considered a campaign built around a sea mage able to use
ocean-based sources, but never put any real thought into it. The Kraken, or a
merfolk/sahuagin wizard would have lots of isolation from land-based interference.
Here`s a thought-- are the merfolk, or sahuagin, blooded at all? I`d bet
none of them were at Deismaar.
Lee.
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03-03-2006, 05:04 PM #3
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There was a sea battle to go along side the land battle at daesmar and they certainly could have been there they may not have gained the most powerful bloodlines though.
MORNINGSTAR
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03-03-2006, 06:47 PM #4
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The answers as I would state (not official).
1. You can forge a ley line to where you don't have a source, but it vanishes in 3 action rounds. You can force magic to flow where there is no end connection, but it weakens and fades in time. And yes, Rhuobhe could do that, if he has enough RP. BoM has an example where someone makes a ley line into Ghoere, subverts a Roesone invasion army to attack Spiderfell instead.
2. Ley lines are extension of stable magic. Magic flows nice and smooth across/through land. The distance of the ley line is not important when making it, only when casting a spell through it. Each province distance adds RP cost to the spell, so a ley line from Taeghas to Vosgaard would cost around +70 RP to cast.
3. In 2E BR, water was a chaotic mass of magic. The stability needed for a ley line couldn't be maintained because of this. It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you consider that the sea, though full of magic (coastal provinces have more source potential), is a mass of chaos. It's hard to coalesce chaos into a ley line. Eventually you just can't do it, and that magic number is 150 miles.
No sea sources for just this reason - the chaos can't be harnessed. Yes, there is huge magical potential there, but it's so random that you can't put it to use. It's like holding onto water in 1 hand - you can only keep a very little bit, not the whole bucket full when poured in.
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03-03-2006, 09:31 PM #5
Ley Line Question
At 02:56 PM 3/2/2006, Thomas_Percy wrote:
>1. Why a mage does not have to have a source in the terminal
>province to which the ley line connects?
>
>Doubt: Can Rhoubhe connect his Rhoubhe province with City of Anuire
>and raze it by Raze realm spell (I assume he choose a time, when
>Dosiere & Co. have no RP)?
>
>2. Why Ley lines can be forged over any overland distance?
>
>Can I connect a Taeghas and Vosgaard with single Ley Line?
>
>Doubt: There will be a mess of crossing ley lines on the map.
The way I like to think about sources and ley lines is by imagining
not just the domain level effect but the adventure level as
well. That is domain level holdings have adventure level
manifestations that the regent has extensive control over. For
instance, a temple(1) represents the control over a few small shrines
in a provine. A temple(5) represents control over, say, a cathedral,
an abbey, several local temples, etc. It is the combined influence
of this control that allows the regent to participate at the domain level.
Sources are a little different in that the adventure level things
being controlled are not buildings and staff per se. They are
mystical places that are the focus of a province`s magical
energies. Such manifestations might take any form; they might be
represented by the meadow where unicorns graze, a cave once occupied
by a dragon that still resonates with power, a standing stone
constructed by elves so long ago that even they have forgotten when
it was placed there. Etc.
Ley lines are also physically manifested, but by things that travel
from one province to another. A wizard might channel his power
through a river that touches both provinces, for instance. A ley
line might be manifested by a wind that passed through the
manifestation of the sources in both provinces that the regent
controls. That is, imagine a strange, mystical breeze that passes by
the ancient oak that is controlled by a wizard as the manifestation
of his source in one province. That breeze passes all the way to
another province where it touches the shimmering cliff face of a
mountain that is the manifestation of that wizard`s source holding
there. Through that breeze the power of the source holding in the
first province is access in the second.
Now, one could imagine a breeze or other physical manifestation
passing over the seas, but 150 miles is a lot of distance for
something like the wind to be maintained undiluted. As has been
noted the chaotic nature of the sea tends to be more difficult to
control. 150 miles is still a pretty good ways, but the very nature
of the sea makes it difficult for the physical manifestation of a ley
line to remain intact over a greater distance of ocean.
Of course, if one could create a ley line _through_ the ocean rather
than over it that would be another story.... More on that below.
>3. Why a ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water?
>
>Why I can connect unlimited (as I understood) overland distances and
>i can`t connect unlimited water distances?
>
>Doubt: Why there are no sea Sources? Sea is wildest and untouched by
>civilization area than many other terrains?
I think there probably are sources in the sea. At least, I can
imagine them pretty easily as I`m sure you have. However, I come
back to the nature of sources and their manifestations for an
explanation as to why they aren`t in the original rules or the
update, and as a rationale for the limitations on ley lines. For
example, a wizard gains control over a source by performing some sort
of mystical process at an actual locale, mastering the magical
potential of a crystal cave, ancient oak, etc. Such things exist
beneath the sea as well as on the land, but there are two fundamental
problems with mastering them.
1. The manifestation of sources in sea provinces are underwater. On
those occasions when they emerge they are, pretty nearly by
definition, on some sort of island which then is effectively handled
as a province. Most wizards aren`t able to hold their breath for the
weeks of meditation, psychic concentration and outright adventuring
required to establish control over a source beneath the waves.
2. Certainly there are magical ways of staying underwater. Notably
magic items and there was a blood ability in the original rules that
gave the character the ability to breath water. One could also
imagine a polymorphed or otherwise shifted character having the
ability to stay underwater for an extended period of time. Long
enough to master the manifestations of a source holding in a sea
province. However, not a lot of Cerilians have access to this kind
of magic. The elves, for instance, who are magical leaders of the
continent appear to have no interest in that kind of
adventure. Cerilian humans do engage in sea travel, but they are
largely confined to boats. There are only rumors of underwater races
(the sahuagin) but very little actual underwater adventure in the
original materials. As a low magic setting, though, such magics are
relatively scarce in BR.
The point of this is that the skills and knowledge to master
underwater sources has not yet been developed by Cerilian
wizards. Magic, like any course of study, has a research and
development process. Because of the lack of solutions to the problem
of extended periods of time underwater nobody has yet performed that process.
I would argue that sources in sea provinces are very possible. There
has been some discussion of the issue in the past in which the
potential source levels of various sea provinces has been discussed,
and I think that stuff makes a lot of sense. Because it is so
difficult for a wizard to stay in place long enough to truly "master"
those manifestations, though, they remain largely untapped.
Similarly, the underwater equivalent of a ley line can be
imagined. It might be some underwater terrain feature or a feature
of the water; a trench or current. However, the issue again is
mastering such a manifestation without succumbing to the briny deep,
which is tough for the mostly land-based Cerilian wizards.
Gary
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03-03-2006, 10:02 PM #6
Ley Line Question
One more note about the unlimited nature of ley lines. They may not
be _really_ unlimited. That is, they are _effectively_ unlimited for
a campaign based on Cerilia, but that`s because Cerilia is a pretty
small continent. If ley lines can be created overland that have
around 10 times the distance of those that pass over the sea then
they are pretty nearly unlimited in range given the size of
Cerilia. Personally, I think that`s a little more reasonable an
interpretation of the concept.
Gary
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03-03-2006, 11:04 PM #7
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Originally Posted by Thomas_Percy
While the example in the BRRB talked about connecting a Level (7) and Level (1) source it didn't state that a ley line had to connect sources and in the BoM, which goes into much more detail about sources it goes on. . .
BoM pg 25+ talks about ley lines.
It talks about the source’s province and the destination province. It does not say the ley lines connect sources.
BoM pg 27
“Once a ley line has been forge the wizard can cast spells in the terminal province as if he had a source there.”
Pretty much. If you pay the price and make the check you can accomplish the task.
Remember that ley lines are "magical" and not the same as roads.
3. Why a ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water?
Why I can connect unlimited (as I understood) overland distances and i can't connect unlimited water distances?
Doubt: Why there are no sea Sources? Sea is wildest and untouched by civilization area than many other terrains?
As others have pointed out this is consistent with the 2nd ed material.
IMO TSR didn't have sufficient time to explore the seas very much so most of that is left poorly developed.
There is the problem with walking the distance to connect the endpoints of a ley line though and the real drastic limitations with traveling over the seas - some of which are pretty rough and others are inhabited by powerful monsters and awnshegh.
Gary spoke pretty well about the inherent problems with sea sources and tapping the manifestations therein.Duane Eggert
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03-04-2006, 09:08 AM #8
Thanks again for explanations.
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