New Gods and Old

[Osprey]

I have often wondered why the Birthright authors limited the 2nd generation of new gods to only 3 (it was probably Rich Baker writing this on his own, but I'll say "they" just in case another contributor had a part in this).

Were they just filling in enough spheres of influence to generally cover all the character classes having a preferred patron deity?

Were they making sure there was one of every major portfolio covering the general scope of human interest?

Both of these assertions would explain Laerme and Eloele being created, but interestingly only Cuiraecen seems to overlap and potentially conflict with the other Cerilian deities of humanity. In fact, he specifically competes with his father, Haelyn, and with Belenik as a god of war and battle, and the distinctions about how they are different re. War are much finer than any of the other portfolios.

If Cuiraecen can come to exist as a source of tension and competition for worship over the same sphere of reality, why aren't there others that were created? Which brings me to the Big Question for this thread:

If there were more deities spawned by the new gods (or by other means) after Deismaar, who or what might they be?

[Magnus Argent]

I have often wondered why the Birthright authors limited the 2nd generation of new gods to only 3 (it was probably Rich Baker writing this on his own, but I'll say "they" just in case another contributor had a part in this).

Were they just filling in enough spheres of influence to generally cover all the character classes having a preferred patron deity?

Were they making sure there was one of every major portfolio covering the general scope of human interest?

Both of these assertions would explain Laerme and Eloele being created, but interestingly only Cuiraecen seems to overlap and potentially conflict with the other Cerilian deities of humanity. In fact, he specifically competes with his father, Haelyn, and with Belenik as a god of war and battle, and the distinctions about how they are different re. War are much finer than any of the other portfolios.

If Cuiraecen can come to exist as a source of tension and competition for worship over the same sphere of reality, why aren't there others that were created? Which brings me to the Big Question for this thread:

If there were more deities spawned by the new gods (or by other means) after Deismaar, who or what might they be?

It is stated that in the days following Deismaar, the new gods worked closely with one another but conflict and rivalries have since developed and the pantheon is no longer as harmonious as it had once been. Although we are told that Haelyn and Neserie married and together had Cuiraecen, that may simply be how mortals interpreted his creation.

We know from other settings that there are a multitude of ways that new gods can be created. For example, in the Forgotten Realms, the former goddess of luck (Tyche) became infected with the taint of Moander. To prevent the taint from infecting all of her, she was split in two. The dark, tained half became Besheba, goddess of bad luck and the non-tainted half became Tymora, goddess of good luck. There are also examples of gods elevating mortals to godhood to serve them as a kind of vassal or to focus on a particular aspect of their portfolio that they personally find distasteful (or just to free them up for other thing I suppose). For example, Shar gave a portion of her divinity to a mortal who became the god Mask. Millenia later, she took back the divine power she had given him (but he secretly had acquired additional divine power and was able to return retain godhood despite the loss.)
In Krynn, the goddess Mina was born of the combined joy felt by the gods during the Age of Starbirth. In that setting, balance among the gods is important. In order for the evil goddess Takhisis to be stripped of her immortality, the good god, Paladine, had to divest himself of his own immortality to keep the balance. Mina was only allowed to continue to exist because her insanity gave her multiple personalities, one good and one evil, thus the balance was maintained.

How does this apply to Birthright? Maybe not at all. But it equally possible that one or more of these types of scenarios could be at play.

It appears that, however they came to be, the birth of Laerme, Eloele, and Cuiraecen likely required consent from the rest of the pantheon or perhaps rules were set in place by the old gods that remain despite their destruction. Or perhaps the universe (game designers) felt the need to balance out the pantheon for some reason.

One idea I played with for a while was the notion that the old gods didn't actually die at Deismaar. Their combined power was enough to destroy Azrai and it was his death the caused the explosion witnessed on the plains below. But the old gods became infected with Azrai's darkness and immediately saw their mistake -- Azrai's taint was forcing their alignments to change towards evil and/or chaos. Realizing that their very nature would be changed, in order to preserve all that they stood for, they gave as much of their divine energy to the mortals who best exemplified what they stood for. This is how the Champions became gods .. but the transfer of divine energy was rushed and poorly executed. The Champions couldn't absorb the divine energy as quickly as the gods tried to divest themselves of it. The excess of divine energy is what was absorbed by the other mortals who were present at Deismaar, creating the divine bloodlines. And the old gods were unable to completely divest themselves of power before they became completely infected by Azrai's taint.

Thus, Kriesha is the LE version of the LG Mesala. Belinik is the CE version of TN Reynir, Cuiraecen the CG version of the LG Anduiras, Laerme is the CG version of the LG Basaia, Eloele is the CN(E) version of the CG Brenna, and the Cold Rider is the NE version of the TN Vorynn. It's a fun twist.

I suspect the most likely explanation is that the creation of the new gods either required a consent or a certain amount of cooperation that existed in the new gods' early days but does not currently exist in the present.

It is interesting to compare who each god considers to be their ally. In many cases, it's a one-way street. Ruornil and Erik both consider each other and Avani to be allies but Avani doesn't count either of them as allies. She sees her allies as being Laerme and Neserie. Laerme sees Avani as her 'superior' and counts Cuiraecen as her ally. Despite being "husband" and "father", neither consider Erik to be their ally. Sera and Ruornil were "married" and had Eloele. Sera considers Eloele and Neserie to be her allies. Eloele considers Sera and Cuiraecen her allies. Again, no love for Hubbie/Pa Ruornil. Cuiraecen arguably conflicts the most with his 'father' in terms of temperament and portfolio but he considers Haelyn to be his superior and Neserie his ally (sometimes Laerme, sometimes Eloele, too). And literally no one, except for Ruornil, considers Erik to be their ally.

Make of this what you will

[Fizz]

If there were more deities spawned by the new gods (or by other means) after Deismaar, who or what might they be?

Geez Osprey, you don't have to yell at us. LOL.

Of the 8 gods that were created from Deismaar, 6 became parents. The only two that did not (at least yet) are the two who took Azrai's essence. Why is that?

A while back i considered doing a campaign involving a new deity, the spawn of Belinik and Kriesha. I envisioned the deity as a goddess of disease and pestilence. I even had a name for her. In my master plan, both her parents thought they could control her for their own ends, but she could not be contained or controlled. She would not have been a mainstream deity, limited to wacky cults and the like. That's about as far as i got with it and never ran the adventure. Maybe i should write her up and post it on the boards here.

In BoP, it is stated there are rumors that Cuiraecen and Laerme have a thing, or possibly a triangle with Eloele. So perhaps a third generation is on the horizon. Let's see... Cuiraecen is the god of battle, Laerme is the goddess of love, so combining we get... god of marriage?

-Fizz

[Osprey]

Geez Osprey, you don't have to yell at us. LOL.

OK, OK, I took it down a few notches. I was writing for the TLDR crowd.

Of the 8 gods that were created from Deismaar, 6 became parents. The only two that did not (at least yet) are the two who took Azrai's essence. Why is that?

A while back i considered doing a campaign involving a new deity, the spawn of Belinik and Kriesha. I envisioned the deity as a goddess of disease and pestilence. I even had a name for her. In my master plan, both her parents thought they could control her for their own ends, but she could not be contained or controlled. She would not have been a mainstream deity, limited to wacky cults and the like. That's about as far as i got with it and never ran the adventure. Maybe i should write her up and post it on the boards here.

That's an interesting concept. My mind goes to some dark places with those 2...like did Belenik and Kreisha have a child in marriage, a brief affair, or a single encounter? Was it by consenting union, or something more violent? (Sorry if this is over-sensitive content for some...I feel like you can't have evil gods without talking about and having them do evil things. Otherwise they just aren't really scary or threatening.).

The nature of the conception might shape or point toward the nature of the child, as well as who is parenting them after birth, and what messages they might teach them. If Kreisha were forced, for instance, she could easily raise a child to hate Belenik, maybe even one who plots to murder and replace him (bloodtheft of the gods!).

I've also wondered what vacuum in the cosmos might be left if the Cold Rider's rise to power were ended (maybe by PC adventures and/or the other gods trying to stop it; they could use faithful PCs as agents in that.). What if the Unseelie King or Queen led a war or were allies against the Cold Rider, and bloodtheft him when he manifests in a great battle in the Shadow World? (again, PCs could have orchestrated an alliance with the Sie/faerie court as part of the buildup to this showdown). A Fae God/dess of the Shadow World corrupted by Azrai's essence? Now that would be interesting!

In BoP, it is stated there are rumors that Cuiraecen and Laerme have a thing, or possibly a triangle with Eloele. So perhaps a third generation is on the horizon. Let's see... Cuiraecen is the god of battle, Laerme is the goddess of love, so combining we get... god of marriage?
-Fizz

HAHA don't forget Fire + Storms blending, in case marriage is not volatile enough!

I think there's room to be creative with next gen gods. They can have aspects from their parents but hopefully there is room for new stuff too. Just being fusions of parent energies is a little boring for gods (lest we end up with Junior Superhero godlings for the Birthright Kids' Cartoon).

Hmm, I will keep pondering Laerme and Cuiraecen having kids. In my current game they are about to get married and create a new domain to rule together, so it's a pretty relevant possibility somewhere down the line.

[Osprey]

It appears that, however they came to be, the birth of Laerme, Eloele, and Cuiraecen likely required consent from the rest of the pantheon or perhaps rules were set in place by the old gods that remain despite their destruction. Or perhaps the universe (game designers) felt the need to balance out the pantheon for some reason.
....
I suspect the most likely explanation is that the creation of the new gods either required a consent or a certain amount of cooperation that existed in the new gods' early days but does not currently exist in the present.

Where does the likelihood of consent by the group come from? I never assumed that was likely or necessary from anything I read. Certainly there are metaphysics that govern the limits of the gods' powers - there is no omnipotent being or even a creator deity in BR as far as we know, but there are certainly rules that govern natural and magical forces, and we know these forces are closely intertwined. As the Shadow World, the realm of spirit, largely mirrors and reflects the physical world, we know its rules are also related to the fundamental forces of creation, albeit in twisted and not always understandable ways (thanks Azrai!).

So I see the rules governing the gods as equally fundamental forces of creation, which the new gods probably had to figure out on their own while testing their new-found power. I imagine having children to see if they could was part of the era of experimentation in the first few centuries after Deismaar - when the new gods were still acting like curious young humans learning to survive and thrive in a new world.

I imagine two main reasons for the gods not having more children:

1. Disinterest. The main focus of the gods became bigger than kids and relationships after a few centuries (I imagine most humans wouldn't last in one marriage for hundreds of years.). In this scenario, all of the gods have drifted apart and each lives alone in their own domain - which is exactly how it looks in the Book of Priestcraft. No gods have a shared domain they rule together, as far I know.

2. Cost. Perhaps it took a significant portion of the parent gods' energies to combine to make a new deity. Realizing how much the creation of one god weakened them, the parent gods never had another child.

Perhaps if enough time passes, the once-mortal gods might grow tired of their roles and willingly pass on their mantles to successors, either through creating or spawning a new god, or by anointing a champion or heir through something more like Deific Investiture.

[Magnus Argent]

Where does the likelihood of consent by the group come from? I never assumed that was likely or necessary from anything I read. Certainly there are metaphysics that govern the limits of the gods' powers - there is no omnipotent being or even a creator deity in BR as far as we know, but there are certainly rules that govern natural and magical forces, and we know these forces are closely intertwined. As the Shadow World, the realm of spirit, largely mirrors and reflects the physical world, we know its rules are also related to the fundamental forces of creation, albeit in twisted and not always understandable ways (thanks Azrai!).

So I see the rules governing the gods as equally fundamental forces of creation, which the new gods probably had to figure out on their own while testing their new-found power. I imagine having children to see if they could was part of the era of experimentation in the first few centuries after Deismaar - when the new gods were still acting like curious young humans learning to survive and thrive in a new world.

I imagine two main reasons for the gods not having more children:

1. Disinterest. The main focus of the gods became bigger than kids and relationships after a few centuries (I imagine most humans wouldn't last in one marriage for hundreds of years.). In this scenario, all of the gods have drifted apart and each lives alone in their own domain - which is exactly how it looks in the Book of Priestcraft. No gods have a shared domain they rule together, as far I know.

2. Cost. Perhaps it took a significant portion of the parent gods' energies to combine to make a new deity. Realizing how much the creation of one god weakened them, the parent gods never had another child.

Perhaps if enough time passes, the once-mortal gods might grow tired of their roles and willingly pass on their mantles to successors, either through creating or spawning a new god, or by anointing a champion or heir through something more like Deific Investiture.

Consent was pure conjecture on my part. Either of the two reasons you propose -- cost or disinterest -- could very well be the case. And, you're right.. consent would only make sense good-aligned deities. Belinik certainly wouldn't let a little thing like consent bother him. Any chance that Cuiraecen could possibly be ... nah, they wouldn't.. ?"

[Sorontar]

I think that thinking of it as children and marriage amongst the gods is just trying to give human names for concepts that aren't actually appropriate. I suspect that the gods actually had been exploring the ways in which they could work together and realised that there were new options. Rather than just combining the effects of their powers, they saw that they could possibly combine the powers, but in doing so, they created new gods. I wonder if they even didn't know what would be the result. This also means that there is nothing stopping there being more than two gods involved and there being no restriction to the gods being binary genders (or any genders). The new god doesn't have to be born; it is just created when the gods tried to use their powers in a new way. Some of these combinations may even have not have been intentional .

For instance, you mentioned the rumour that Leira and Khirdai might be a couple and wondered what new god may be born. You suggested that Battle and Love might create Marriage, a very Lawful-based concept that may have been caused by Good or Evil intent or convenience (Neutral). What about Revenge? (Chaotic) You mentioned Fire and Storms so why not a new god of Destruction (Neutral)? I suspect there are many other combinations you can think of that cover other concepts and alignments.

Who knows, you could even have new gods formed from Moradin and Haelyn, or Torazan and Nesirie. There is no rule that they have to be "human" gods as the originators. They may even be allowances that enable gods from other realities to sneak in (though this sort of goes against the "Aebyrnis and the Shadow World is a separate planar universe"-type argument.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

I think that thinking of it as children and marriage amongst the gods is just trying to give human names for concepts that aren't actually appropriate.

I agree in a sense. The state of being a god is beyond the understanding of us mere mortals. On the other hand, the new gods remember their mortal existence, desires included, and that must influence how they proceed (such as the concept of a spouse).

For instance, you mentioned the rumour that Leira and Khirdai might be a couple and wondered what new god may be born. You suggested that Battle and Love might create Marriage, a very Lawful-based concept that may have been caused by Good or Evil intent or convenience (Neutral).

Well, to be fair i only suggested marriage as a joke.

But yes, i can see how different porfolios of the child deity can be justified from the same two deities. Perhaps the next child of Haelyn and Nesirie would be the god of the sky and protection and community, maybe?

But is there a limit to how different the spawned god can be from the parents? For example, could Haelyn and Nesirie have a kid who becomes an evil god of tyranny and suffering (the exact opposite of the parents)? I don't see it an extreme like that working unless there is a significant backstory explaining it.

-Fizz

[Sorontar]

Haelyn and Ruornil and Nesirie - a Moon Sailor Guardian god?

[Magnus Argent]

Haelyn and Ruornil and Nesirie - a Moon Sailor Guardian god?

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Who knew she was a Birthright creation?