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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Now that 3e has given bards and magicians healing magic, however, humanity's power over the elves in this pre-history seems less like a reality now...
    Something with which i vehemently disagree (giving healing to those classes, i mean).

    -Fizz

  2. #22
    Yup, and giving dragons access to healing spells (or magic, for that matter; I think that they should simply be simple-minded, terrifying lizards... )

    However, that's what we have for rules, so...

    What do you think of my proposed fixes?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    However, that's what we have for rules, so...
    Only if you're playing 3e, which i am not.

    What do you think of my proposed fixes?
    I like the notion of that a non-blooded regent has to earn his RP. I think the idea is good in principle, the devil is in the details as they say.

    Though sometimes i think it might just be easier to change to rule for everyone; instead of using the lowest of the bloodline score and holdings, use the average of the two values.

    Maybe dragons are like natural sources? They collect mebhaighl naturally, and thus "earn" RP that way? Perhaps a certain number of RP/turn based on age category?
    If a dragon collects mebhaigl, are you suggesting that a caster could draw power from the dragon itself? I don't like that idea. Though the dragon Vore Lekiniskiy has "merged" with the mountain, so he might be a special case where the dragon might be treated as a source.

    But the notion that a dragon can collect mebhaigl and convert it to RP has potential. How much mebhaigl corresponds to an "earned" RP were you thinking?


    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 08-05-2023 at 02:43 AM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Why would dragons control Sources or cast realm spells? Because they are epic, and this makes them moreso?

    I think of dragons like elves - they can cast true magic because it's inherent to their nature, not because they have divine bloodlines. Unblooded elves can be wizards or sorcerers, but those elves can't control sources or cast realm spells. As far as I know, that ability is the sole province of blooded mages - hence why elven source regents all have divine bloodlines.

    If one *does* wish for dragons to have divine bloodlines, control sources, and cast realm spells, in my mind the easiest thing to do is treat them as themselves divine beings, and make their base bloodline scores equal to their Hit Dice (or based on that), then allow them to grow their bloodlines from source domains if so desired.

    (But personally, I think it's easier to say that dragons predate source magic and realm spells).

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    (But personally, I think it's easier to say that dragons predate source magic and realm spells).
    Well, what does that mean?

    I'm just trying to find a mechanic to explain stuff in the core material...

    Dragons seem to be able to cast realm spells...

    The HD option sounds plausible... non-regents get RP based on level?
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 08-11-2023 at 05:03 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    If a dragon collects mebhaigl, are you suggesting that a caster could draw power from the dragon itself? I don't like that idea. Though the dragon Vore Lekiniskiy has "merged" with the mountain, so he might be a special case where the dragon might be treated as a source.
    Well, no, unless they can mystically bond with the dragon, which I would assume the dragon would resist...

    I'm not sure treating Vore as a one-off is a good idea, either. I get that he's epic among dragons, but I think his spell abilities are typical of dragons (just developed to a higher degree?).

    I don't want to create a whole new set of rules, here... just a creative fix, if possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    But the notion that a dragon can collect mebhaigl and convert it to RP has potential. How much mebhaigl corresponds to an "earned" RP were you thinking.
    Well, either they are like other non-blooded regents and earn RP based on regency gains like these other class of non-divine beings...

    Or they get an amount of RP another way... Osprey's HD limitation sounds ok... or maybe based on their wizard-casting level? In the original 2e rules, dragons cast as 9-16th level wizards, I believe...

    Something which the Dragon magazine articles overlooked, IIRC (the featured dragons all cast at higher level...) sigh.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Dragons seem to be able to cast realm spells...
    Can you give a reference where this is the case, or is hinted at? I don't recall reading anything like that, but certainly haven't read all the 2e material either.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Can you give a reference where this is the case, or is hinted at? I don't recall reading anything like that, but certainly haven't read all the 2e material either.
    The Dragon of Vstaive Peak article claims that he may have access to realm magic. He holds sources.

    There is another rumored dragon in the north, who also holds sources. I believe it's Tarazin, but it's left intentionally vague.

    Regardless, dragons are some of the most powerful magic-users in existence. They hold sources. Having realm magic probably isn't a stretch...

  9. #29
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    The Dragon of Vstaive Peak article claims that he may have access to realm magic. He holds sources.

    There is another rumored dragon in the north, who also holds sources. I believe it's Tarazin, but it's left intentionally vague.

    Regardless, dragons are some of the most powerful magic-users in existence. They hold sources. Having realm magic probably isn't a stretch...
    Thanks, that's really the 1st I had ever heard of dragons being source regents in Cerilia other than by fans.

    If they hold sources, they might have realm magic...or maybe they use the mebhaighal to strengthen their magic over the centuries? Like gaining sorcerer levels beyond the default for their age? Or learning some extra tricks (like metamagic or item creation feats in 3e)? Or for fueling the creation of magic items?

    Once we stop thinking of what humans do with sources, thinking what dragons might do with a steady supply of arcane energy has a lot of creative possibilities! Month-long ritual magic seems like one of the less likely things I imagine them wanting to do...not because they lack patience of course, but more the ritual factor.

    I guess realm magic has always seemed a very wizardly or priestly thing and not an intuitive sorcerer thing to me. (I know in 2e there are no sorcerers, but later, when there are, it makes perfect sense that dragons are not wizards and don't generally use books and such).

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I guess realm magic has always seemed a very wizardly or priestly thing and not an intuitive sorcerer thing to me. (I know in 2e there are no sorcerers, but later, when there are, it makes perfect sense that dragons are not wizards and don't generally use books and such).
    Perhaps they "feed" off the mebhaighl to extend their lifespan?

    Anyway, there doesn't seem a point for them being source holders without the ability to use realm magic.

    The dragon (Vore for now, but others I would assume) grab sources so that they can be involved in human affairs (i.e. domain actions)... at least, that is what the article implies.

    So, using HD as a virtual bloodline is the best way of handling it? Or should we just give these special dragons bloodlines?

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