Those pesky dragons...

[Sorontar]

Maybe a dragon have a connection to the land without bloodline, such that this existed pre-Deismaar and does allow them to have a degree of control over a particular source holding (probably localised where they have a hoard). They may not have had realm magic initially because the land wasn't empowered for the blooded like that (maybe because it was a power only granted to the gods), but maybe after Deismaar realm magic was possible to any who had regency over a suitable holding, even dragons.

Sorontar

[masterdaorin]

So, they get RP, or no? And, how much?

[Fizz]

I've been searching through some sources to see if i can find precedent.

Dragon Magazine #248 says the following about the dragon Vore Lekiniskiy (written by Ed Stark):
"Vore Lekiniskiy can cast wizard spells at the 20th level of ability and has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia. Recently, there is evidence that Vore has access to realm magic as well, though this has yet to be confirmed."

And it makes no mention of Vore having a bloodline, not even in the full stat block. So are they deliberately being vague to leave it up to the DM? But either way, it suggests that dragons have the potential to cast realm magic.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

Yes, but that would mean that dragons have, effectively, an unlimited blood score (since they will always be collecting the sum total of their holdings).
That would make scions much less better at ruling than non-blooded beings... It is dragons we're talking about here, but still...

I'm not understanding your meaning here. The standard rule is that a character collects RP equal to their bloodscore, or sum of holdings, whichever is lower. So using that rule, a dragon (who is not blooded), would collect 0 RP. So i don't see how that makes a non-scion a better ruler. Am i missing something in your meaning?

I'm pretty sure (arcane/realm) magic was the purview of the gods only before Deismaar.

I don't recall that. In my head i've assumed it was possible, as the magic from the land is separate from that of the gods.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

I'm not understanding your meaning here. The standard rule is that a character collects RP equal to their bloodscore, or sum of holdings, whichever is lower. So using that rule, a dragon (who is not blooded), would collect 0 RP. So i don't see how that makes a non-scion a better ruler. Am i missing something in your meaning?

I mean, if we allow dragons to hold source holdings without a bloodline, and use them to full effect (as noted in your previous post), then do they just get virtual RP = to the number of source holdings per domain turn? OR some other mechanic?

Or, should we go with my other suggestion, and allow non-scions access to RP via special dispensation, such as with regency gains for effective regent actions? < I rather like that option, as it solves the whole pre-Deismaar conundrum.

I don't recall that. In my head i've assumed it was possible, as the magic from the land is separate from that of the gods.

True (greater) magic was not useable except via elves (and dragons, and any others of that ilk) until Azrai taught humans about true magic. The first ones were the Lost.

Divine magic was all that there was until that happened. Unless, of course, I'm also mistaken.

I think it was in the Atlas of Cerilia? I'll have to go look it up again, if anyone wants to challenge me on that last point...

[Doyle]

IIRC (possibly this changed with 3.5), but characters could have holdings without a bloodline, they just couldn't collect RP - making them less effective as a regent, but not incapable.

[Fizz]

True (greater) magic was not useable except via elves (and dragons, and any others of that ilk) until Azrai taught humans about true magic. The first ones were the Lost.

Sorry, I was referring to realm magic- was there arcane realm magic before Deismaar, cast by elves and dragons and similar creatures (but not humans)?

Divine magic was all that there was until that happened. Unless, of course, I'm also mistaken.

Yes, humans had divine magic, but did they have divine realm magic before Deismaar? If there was arcane relam magic, then there was probably also divine realm magic (else i think the elves would have pushed back the humans).

I mean, if we allow dragons to hold source holdings without a bloodline, and use them to full effect (as noted in your previous post), then do they just get virtual RP = to the number of source holdings per domain turn? OR some other mechanic?

OK, i see what you mean now. And yes, this would make non-scions potentially better rulers (than low blood-score scions anyways), since only holdings would matter.

Or, should we go with my other suggestion, and allow non-scions access to RP via special dispensation, such as with regency gains for effective regent actions? < I rather like that option, as it solves the whole pre-Deismaar conundrum.

So you are saying that the non-scion regent would not automatically collect RP, yes? The regent would make a domain action, but not be able to bid any RP. If successful, they earn some RP, to do something else? That's a possibility. Before committing, I'd want to think about the math, to make sure there is no way such a character could become better than a blooded scion.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

So you are saying that the non-scion regent would not automatically collect RP, yes? The regent would make a domain action, but not be able to bid any RP. If successful, they earn some RP, to do something else? That's a possibility. Before committing, I'd want to think about the math, to make sure there is no way such a character could become better than a blooded scion.

Yea, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

Non-scions would have to have to earn their RP via methods other than holdings. So, adventures, good domain management, etc.

For dragons specifically, not sure what they would do to get RPs, however. They probably just sleep most of the time...

Wait a minute... lightbulb!

Maybe dragons are like natural sources? They collect mebhaighl naturally, and thus "earn" RP that way? Perhaps a certain number of RP/turn based on age category?

[masterdaorin]

IIRC (possibly this changed with 3.5), but characters could have holdings without a bloodline, they just couldn't collect RP - making them less effective as a regent, but not incapable.

Yea, that's seems the most likely.

However, if we have actions (and related domain things) requiring RP, then we need to have a way for non-blooded to access those (normal) actions.

I think anyone should be able to be regents.

It would make GB more useful too - at least find a use for all that excess GB to be used...

[masterdaorin]

Sorry, I was referring to realm magic- was there arcane realm magic before Deismaar, cast by elves and dragons and similar creatures (but not humans)?
...
Yes, humans had divine magic, but did they have divine realm magic before Deismaar? If there was arcane relam magic, then there was probably also divine realm magic (else i think the elves would have pushed back the humans).

I would assume realm magic (either variety) has existed since magic was capable of being cast.

Humans only had access to arcane realm magic when Azrai let them in on the secrets...

Now that 3e has given bards and magicians healing magic, however, humanity's power over the elves in this pre-history seems less like a reality now...