Of Divinity and Bloodlines...

[Osprey]

One other thing to note on this subject:
Recently I went back and studied the original 2e bloodline system in the core rulebook in careful detail, and made a pretty important realization:

Bloodline strength (tainted, minor, major, great, true) doesn't actually matter in that system, except as a general descriptor for a certain range of bloodline scores, and possibly by extension a descriptor used by Cerilian priests and scholars to compare and rank hereditary bloodlines and famous scions.

It was only in the BRCS 3e revision that these categories actually became hard power limits for bloodline abilities. In 2e, a minor scion could have major blood abilities with a lucky roll, and major scions could (and did) sometimes have great bloodline powers the same way (particularly awnshegh).

So what does it really take to gain a True bloodline in the original system? I would argue: a high-enough bloodline score. The only examples I know of from the original box set are Rhuobhe Manslayer and The Spider, both with a 95 Bloodline Score, and The Gorgon with a score of 100+ (no exact score was given in the original box set).

We really don't know how strong Roele and his descendants' bloodline scores were, as the one other set of True scions we know of existing in Cerilia.

Other high bloodline scores from the original material, for comparison:
The Seadrake (Great, 80)

If we take Blood Enemies as canon (in which awnshegh bloodline strengths range from Tainted to True bloodline strength, and the bloodline scores do not exactly line up with the corebook strength/score ranges), we get:
Leviathan (True, 85)
The Raven (True, 77)
The Serpent (True, 77)

So True Bloodlines seem to be around 75+ bloodline score, but as the Seadrake shows, an 80 bloodline score can still not be a True bloodline.

What then grants a True bloodline other than gaining one from the Battle of Deismaar, or somehow preserving one from then? And would this be enough, or even matter, if achieving godhood, as it seems a True bloodline might really be "the closest a scion can come to godhood without actually achieving it?"

As far as we know, the only gods in Cerilia are the ones who became gods at Deismaar, and the 3 children born to those gods in the centuries following, all of whom are considered lesser deities (and I wonder, is this because the 2nd generation of gods are automatically born weaker than their parents, or because they do not yet have enough worshipers?).

The only weird exception that seems to defy hard rules is The Cold Rider. He might actually be the best original example of a being becoming a god, though the origins and reasons for this seem to be intentionally obscure so that DMs can make up their own interpretations.

[Fizz]

As far as we know, the only gods in Cerilia are the ones who became gods at Deismaar, and the 3 children born to those gods in the centuries following, all of whom are considered lesser deities

I don't think that is true. The dwarves have a pantheon led by Moradin, the goblins have Kartathok, the orogs follow Torazan. The giants and other races may have their own as well. None of them were born at Deismaar.

The only weird exception that seems to defy hard rules is The Cold Rider. He might actually be the best original example of a being becoming a god, though the origins and reasons for this seem to be intentionally obscure so that DMs can make up their own interpretations.

Well, The Cold Rider is essentially Azrai (or at least his essence), slowing regenerating in the Shadow World. So yeah he defies the usual rules... always such the rebel... heh. He never wasn't a god, he's just been "disintigrated" for the moment. But yes, i'm sure such details were deliberately meant to be obscure.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Deities and Demigods

It's a pretty comprehensive "deity design" system, more thorough than anything else I've ever seen published for D&D. Years ago I read up on that system specifically to research this question (how might a scion ascend to godhood in Birthright?).[/URL]

Very helpful, thank you!

I'll start with the premise that a Divine Rank of 1 starts at a Bloodline Score of 200, or something like that.

Let me ponder...

[masterdaorin]

I've thought about this question for a long time, but have only now noticed the forum thread - sorry for coming late to the discussion!

After reading up on everyone's thoughts, I had a few replies and thoughts to consider from my own point of view as a long-time student of history, folklore, and mythology:

[et. al.].

I agree with all of what you said.

But, I also have to stress that the game itself seems to overly emphasis the prevalence of magic use, and necessarily so.

But the strength of BR, IMO, is the implication (although I agree that the supplements don't do a very good job of it) that this is a low-magic setting. Magic ought to be more, well, magical, and mysterious.

I think that's important to stress in any BR game. I always try to stress that.

Remember: though it doesn't seem like it, scions and magic users are rare. There are, perhaps, in the 40 million people of Cerilia, only a few hundred of ALL types of magic user. Scions are slightly more prevalent, of course, but still...

And that also brings up the point about scions, as I have stressed in other threads. Bloodlines are a BIG deal in this setting. It would carry a lot more weight "in the real world" than it is perhaps implied by the subject material.

For example, families would be very despotic about marriages, and who can get with whom. People can't simply just... etc.

Another example: Duels of Honor would definitely have strictures regarding how they are conducted. Bloodtheft is *vile* - you don't steal someone's divinity. I guarantee that. A scion's bloodline is their *soul* - nay, their family's identity. That is a big deal, especially in the cultures and societies as we have in this setting.

Players may not always keep this in mind, because their characters are those special people, so it usually comes to a point where they believe that its just common for "lots" of people to have abilities such as theirs.

I always try to have many more non-heroic NPCs in the setting around to stress that.

[masterdaorin]

Scions are living miracle workers, many with demonstrable divine powers that may separate them from their fellows. Those with bloodmarks and public displays of such power would be the most elevated and divine to the public view, and thus the most prone to worship while still alive. The closest equivalent from Earth would be to treat scions like Living Saints, but even this is problematic because of how common divine magic ("miracles") is on Aebrynis.

On Aebrynis, faith is wildly different than on Earth, because there are blooded scions and clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, and possibly other divine magic sources (such as Oracles), depending on the version of D&D one is using and integrating into the BR setting. So it's far easier to prove one's divine power in this setting than it is on Earth - and this makes Earth a pretty poor source of inspiration, where divine miracles really stand out as proof of divine favoritism or elevated status, whereas in Aebrynis well...you would stand out, but more I think as a member of an elite section of the populace, not as living saints. Clerics and other divine spellcasters cannot actually prove their powers come from deities, they just claim they do (something discussed in the BoP, and apparently debated in theological circles in Cerilia). This would make most magic-users look more similar than different to the common view, with the differences being noticeable more by presentation (clerical vestments, wizard robes, etc) than by provable means. Only other magic users, using spellcraft, detect magic, or more advanced divination, could really distinguish and educate people on the differences in magical types and sources.

I'm also of the opinion that, much like on Earth, bigotry and hate would win out over any sort of idealism about how much better life would be in this setting compared to the real world. So, I'm more of the opinion that Earth *could* be a good comparison for such.

I would bet my travelling boots that the religions of this setting would definitely have something to say about this aspect of their world.

They would also be careful to... how shall we say... be the guardians of just what constitutes authentic miracles and such.

I guarantee that the churches and priests would also be a lot more fire and brimstone about what bloodlines mean, and how society is to conduct itself when a scion is discovered to be someone of that stature, and all that entails.

And, because of that, I'm willing to bet that families of scions are much more careful about how their members display such obvious aspects of divinity... especially when they have enemies willing to brand them as "outsiders", "demons", "sorcerers and witches", etc.

[masterdaorin]

I think the most likely candidates for worship while alive would be the Ershegh, if any of them actually had a True bloodline. The mystery surrounding them would be a powerful factor in leading people to believe they might actually be gods who could grant them powers and bestow miracles upon them if properly appeased and worshiped.

Yup. However, other than the Serpent, none of these class of scion is implied as being able to grant divine spells.

I have to conclude, based on the fact that some people at Deismaar ascended to godhood, and most did not, that the amount of divine bloodpower is a factor in whether a scion can become a god, regardless of actual worship or not.

[masterdaorin]

One other thing to note on this subject:
Recently I went back and studied the original 2e bloodline system in the core rulebook in careful detail, and made a pretty important realization:

Bloodline strength (tainted, minor, major, great, true) doesn't actually matter in that system, except as a general descriptor for a certain range of bloodline scores, and possibly by extension a descriptor used by Cerilian priests and scholars to compare and rank hereditary bloodlines and famous scions.

I would think that strength implies "purity" of divinity. Whatever that means... I'm, at this point, considering that as part of my "Fate" mechanic idea...

I do like how the 3e version corrected this oversight. Thanks, to whoever did that.

As far as we know, the only gods in Cerilia are the ones who became gods at Deismaar, and the 3 children born to those gods in the centuries following, all of whom are considered lesser deities (and I wonder, is this because the 2nd generation of gods are automatically born weaker than their parents, or because they do not yet have enough worshipers?).

Very good point. It would seem to be the former. My take:

The gods don't have mortal bodies anymore... so they need to "give of themselves" to create another god. Rather than the biological way, which seems to self-generate this divinity.

This would also imply, I do believe, that a bloodline score is involved with divine ranks.

[Fizz]

Yup. However, other than the Serpent, none of these class of scion is implied as being able to grant divine spells.

That assumes that the Serpent is the one actually doing the granting, and not serving as a figurehead for some other deity. That is my personal preferred take on it, but it's deliberately left vague.

I would think that strength implies "purity" of divinity. Whatever that means...

I like to think of it via this analogy. Beer is typically ~8% alcohol by volume. Whiskey is typically ~50%. So ~6 beers is the same as 1 whiskey in terms of total alcohol content (blood score), but whiskey will behave differently than beer from a chemical standpoint because it has a higher abv (blood strength).

Very good point. It would seem to be the former. My take: The gods don't have mortal bodies anymore... so they need to "give of themselves" to create another god. Rather than the biological way, which seems to self-generate this divinity.

But remember there are gods other than those from Deismaar; Moradin, Kartathok, Torazan, etc. So how would they fit in? Or perhaps they follow different rules because they are not of Deismaar. ?


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

That assumes that the Serpent is the one actually doing the granting, and not serving as a figurehead for some other deity. That is my personal preferred take on it, but it's deliberately left vague.

I, too, have written it that the Serpent is simply using his skill at deception to fool those who worship him. The priesthoods' actual power comes from the true god of serpents...

I also have written it that the Serpent actually believes his own hype...

But remember there are gods other than those from Deismaar; Moradin, Kartathok, Torazan, etc. So how would they fit in? Or perhaps they follow different rules because they are not of Deismaar. ?

The old gods got their divinity from creation.

Deismaar gave the world a new vision of what is possible... because six of the old gods (the most powerful?) decided to sacrifice themselves for the good of the world.

[masterdaorin]

A very interesting question is: can the worship of a god's believers actually increase their Divine Rank, by choice?

Much like RP and Bloodline Scores...

That's why I'm thinking only regents can ascend to godhood, not just any scion... and probably why no one has figured it out yet...