Questions regarding Divine Bloodlines

[Fizz]

Don't get me wrong, Fizz, I like this idea, but if that's true then that generates a whole new set of questions, and seems to fly in the face of the source material. Let me see if I have this right:

A scion is born. He is born with a certain amount of raw energy. Since this is divine energy, the scion's own "divine essence" shapes that deific energy into something that is akin to the essence that was [old god] and, as such, after the scion hits puberty, the scion manifests a certain number of divine abilities that [the aforementioned old god] also could perform.

Thus, in essence, a scion's bloodline is individual to that particular scion alone.

Though my analogy may not have been ideal, in fact what i've been doing is to find some reasoning that justifies the source material, not to break with it.

The source material says that when bloodtheft occurs, the usurper's bloodline score increases, regardless of what the slain's derivation is or how often. So in theory, a scion with a derivation of Anduiras and score of 10 could slay dozens of scions of Brenna, raising their score to say 25+, but still maintain the same derivation of Anduiras.

Under the 3E conversion, derivation can only change if the stolen bloodline's strength is greater than the usurper's (and only if not successfully resisted).

Maybe a better way of thinking about derivation is that it's like a blueprint or operating system that tells the energy what to do. Every character can only have one OS at a time. In the case of bloodtheft of a stronger bloodline, the stolen derivation can attempt to "overwrite" the current OS, like a computer virus. If it doesn't succeed, then it's just not present in that person.

In the case of a child, it's kind of the same thing: the stronger bloodline provides the blueprint / OS, but the available energy is diluted by the weaker bloodline.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Maybe a better way of thinking about derivation is that it's like a blueprint or operating system that tells the energy what to do. Every character can only have one OS at a time. In the case of bloodtheft of a stronger bloodline, the stolen derivation can attempt to "overwrite" the current OS, like a computer virus. If it doesn't succeed, then it's just not present in that person.

In the case of a child, it's kind of the same thing: the stronger bloodline provides the blueprint / OS, but the available energy is diluted by the weaker bloodline.

That's a great way of looking at it! That's how I've always played it.

However, what happens if we remove that blueprint? What happens to the energy when it's "overwritten"?

I'm not sure anymore about that. Having bloodlines akin to "genetic" is proving something of a quandary.

For example, I'm not sure that certain blood abilities make physiological changes... otherwise, what happens when that physiological change is suddenly removed? Is the change gradual? Or is it something else? Or, rather, are they purely supernatural, and thus operate outside the bounds of reality? AND, is the raw energy itself "sentient"? Does the raw energy itself have some influence over the "OS"? AND, is this raw energy connected with "like-minded" operating systems, in an unbroken line all the way back to Deismaar?

That's what I'm hoping to answer here...

[Fizz]

However, what happens if we remove that blueprint? What happens to the energy when it's "overwritten"?

I would say that the energy is still there, but that the new OS / blueprint begins to reshape it. Maybe some blood abilities are left alone if they don't "conflict" with the new derivation, but others might fade away while other new abilities slowly manifest.

I'm not sure anymore about that. Having bloodlines akin to "genetic" is proving something of a quandary.

For example, I'm not sure that certain blood abilities make physiological changes... otherwise, what happens when that physiological change is suddenly removed? Is the change gradual? Or is it something else? Or, rather, are they purely supernatural, and thus operate outside the bounds of reality?

I think you can have both. Some blood abilities may alter or maintain the character's physiology (Long Life is a good candidate for this), while others are clearly purely magical (such as Summon Elemental).

This is magic, so the normal laws of physics, chemistry and biology as we know them in the real world do not have to apply. You can justify most abilities in multiple ways.

There are no rules for transitioning from one ability to another. I think that's best handled by the DM. Personally, i'd do it slowly. For example, say the character originally had Summon Elemental, but the new derivation doesn't support it. So over time the character finds that Summon Elementals becomes weaker or intermittant, and eventually it just doesn't work at all. Meanwhile, a new ability does the reverse, accidentally occuring at first, and slowly the character gains more control and power with it.

AND, is the raw energy itself "sentient"? Does the raw energy itself have some influence over the "OS"? AND, is this raw energy connected with "like-minded" operating systems, in an unbroken line all the way back to Deismaar?

I don't think the raw energy itself is sentient. It's simply the "material" that the blueprint manipulates to its own ends. How it manifests can be related to various factors; obviously the derivation, but also the personality of the scion, maybe circumstances, whatever you deem relevant.


-Fizz

[Doyle]

I don't think the raw energy itself is sentient. It's simply the "material" that the blueprint manipulates to its own ends. How it manifests can be related to various factors; obviously the derivation, but also the personality of the scion, maybe circumstances, whatever you deem relevant.
-Fizz

IIRC there are a few references to the 'land' choosing an heir and imbuing a worthy commoner with a bloodline. From memory, this was a suggestion for a possible backstory rather than a rule, but it could be extrapolated from that for all the bloodline raw energy that has been 'grounded' could be enough for sentience - at least enough to make a choice of an individual being worthy.

[Fizz]

IIRC there are a few references to the 'land' choosing an heir and imbuing a worthy commoner with a bloodline. From memory, this was a suggestion for a possible backstory rather than a rule, but it could be extrapolated from that for all the bloodline raw energy that has been 'grounded' could be enough for sentience - at least enough to make a choice of an individual being worthy.

I don't know of any reference offhand (not saying you're wrong- i just can't think of one), but it's not a bad idea. In this case, i'd say the "land" is not just the bloodline energy, but a combination of that, the people, mebhaighl, circumstances, the current gods, etc. Even then i don't know that "sentience" would be the right word, as that implies consciousness or self-awareness, which doesn't feel quite right to me (maybe it's just me... heh).

-Fizz

[Doyle]

Fair enough - 'self aware' does sound like too much of a stretch.

[masterdaorin]

I don't think the raw energy itself is sentient. It's simply the "material" that the blueprint manipulates to its own ends. How it manifests can be related to various factors; obviously the derivation, but also the personality of the scion, maybe circumstances, whatever you deem relevant.

Very interesting...

So... is it fair to say then that the derivation is the "actual" bloodline? Perhaps the "raw energy" is simply how much of "the land's essence" responds to that bloodline?

Hmmm....

[masterdaorin]

I believe the "land" choosing an heir comes from the BoP.

Fair enough - 'self aware' does sound like too much of a stretch.

Actually, that idea intrigues me the most. However, that might be making bloodlines too magical for the likes of players... and too complicated.

Still... there's something to be said for the essence to be more than simply raw energy. We are talking about gods here... the original ones. So, probably far, far more powerful (than their successors...).

And, there's the fact that this stuff responds to the will of regents... I dunno... that seems to point to some kind of awareness... Actually, maybe it's the other way around... Hmmm...

[masterdaorin]

Yup, the more I think about it, the more I think you're onto something with your flavor analogy, Fizz, and the more I like it!

First, is there ANY reference to any derivation other than Azrai changing a bloodline in any of the source material? Any reference buried deep in a magic item's description, or a hint in an anecdotal reference in a paragraph?

[Fizz]

Very interesting...
So... is it fair to say then that the derivation is the "actual" bloodline? Perhaps the "raw energy" is simply how much of "the land's essence" responds to that bloodline?
Hmmm....

Well, a bloodline is measured by three things. Derivation (the connection to which deity), strength (purity of the connection), and score (the amount of essence, or energy). And then blood abilities are how the bloodline manifests.

How the bloodline relates to the "Land" is an even more complicated issue. There are regents with weaker bloodlines than many of its citizens, so who rules is not just a matter of strengh or score. But the amount of RP is limited by the bloodline score, so it's not irrelevant either. We also have to consider investiture- without that ceremony there is no bond to the Land, so it's not just a mystical connection that happens automatically.

The best source for this information is The Book of Priestcraft. It covers all types of investiture and even has a section on The Land's Choice in the event that the regency wasn't passed otherwise. If you don't have the book, i highly recommend it as it covers all this material in depth.


-Fizz