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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
    There is a note in the Players secrets of Binsada that if the current regent "has invested the PC with her bloodline strength, the only blood ability she retains is her bloodmark."

    Not that I'm suggesting that the PS's are always consistent with the rules, but I think it may give the DM the option.
    Yea, that's what I've noticed too. And, so, would she still retain the bonus from her bloodmark ability? Or is it just "cosmetic" now?

    Losing your bloodline would seem to imply that you don't have access to its special powers anymore, and yet... here is this example to throw a wrench into things...

    If we can answer this question to everyone's satisfaction, then I think this whole bloodline conundrum will be solved...
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 01-26-2023 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #52
    Has no one has any suggestions regarding bloodmarks?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Yea, that's what I've noticed too. And, so, would she still retain the bonus from her bloodmark ability? Or is it just "cosmetic" now?

    Losing your bloodline would seem to imply that you don't have access to its special powers anymore, and yet... here is this example to throw a wrench into things...

    If we can answer this question to everyone's satisfaction, then I think this whole bloodline conundrum will be solved...
    It depends if the blood ability is a one-off benefit or if it is something that is a continuous benefit or that has a usage to it.

    For example Elemental Control is something that has to be called each time, and every event is clearly a magical (or not normal) event. You need to call upon divine magic each time it is used. So if you lost your bloodline, clearly you'd lose that power.

    But in the case of Bloodmark, it feels like a one-time change to your appearance. The magic changes your appearance, then it's done. It's permanent; no continuous magic is required to sustain the change. So i think something like that would remain even if your bloodline was lost.

    I think there are other blood abilities that would be permanent as well, not just Bloodmark. Personally, i think i'd decide for each ability separately, rather than have a blanket rule. But your mileage may vary.


    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 02-02-2023 at 02:06 AM.

  4. #54
    Interesting points... must ponder...

  5. #55
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    But in the case of Bloodmark, it feels like a one-time change to your appearance. The magic changes your appearance, then it's done. It's permanent; no continuous magic is required to sustain the change. So i think something like that would remain even if your bloodline was lost.
    I think this is a good way to handle Bloodmark, and its effects can even still be applied as long as the viewers of the mark believe the character is blooded. If they know the character was divested of their bloodline, eh...if the character is still from a prominent family, the bloodmark still shows their lineage and family in an undeniable way.

    I also like that a bloodmark wouldn't necessarily change if someone's bloodline became corrupted. New scions of Azrai should not always be easy to detect without specific magic.

  6. #56
    I agree, and it solves a big problem. Thanks, Fizz!

    However, other than bloodmark and, perhaps, heightening ability, I don't believe there are any other blood ability that would "work once and then it's done", as Fizz's fix fixes.

    Anyone have a problem with heightened ability also sticking?

    The only problem with this fix, of course, is it effectively gives "extra" blood abilities to characters that commit blood usurpation.

    I suppose that could be accepted, considering the nature of this method.

    Plus, this fix does lend more to the argument that only Azrai's bloodline corrupts...

  7. #57
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post

    Anyone have a problem with heightened ability also sticking?

    The only problem with this fix, of course, is it effectively gives "extra" blood abilities to characters that commit blood usurpation.

    I suppose that could be accepted, considering the nature of this method.

    Plus, this fix does lend more to the argument that only Azrai's bloodline corrupts...
    I have had Heightened Ability change along with a changed derivation after bloodtheft.
    It would be lost in the case of bloodline divestiture as well.

    But I run BRCS rules not 2e and have all bloodtheft require contested bloodline checks to determine the winning derivation of the surviving bloodline in each case.

    I definitely like that rule better than saying only Azrai's line can change a derivation. It just makes things more variable and changeable, which I enjoy. Birthright already uses a lot less stuff than core D&D (like a comparatively tiny monster list, less magic, and lower avg. NPC levels), so I tend to not want to keep trimming it down more.
    Last edited by Osprey; 02-09-2023 at 06:20 PM.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I have had Heightened Ability change along with a changed derivation after bloodtheft.
    It would be lost in the case of bloodline divestiture as well.
    So, the only ability you would keep is bloodmark?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    But I run BRCS rules not 2e and have all bloodtheft require contested bloodline checks to determine the winning derivation of the surviving bloodline in each case.
    I do like the idea of changing to any derivation, but I'm still pondering that one... right now, I'm leaning against it...

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    So, the only ability you would keep is bloodmark?
    Sorry for my delayed reply- got busy and needed some time to go through the book.

    Note that my following comments are based on the 2nd ed version- don't know how much the 3E versions differ.

    I think there are a number of blood abilities other than Bloodmark that could continue to apply even if the blood derivation is changed. Again, it depends on exactly how you think the blood abilities affected the recipient.

    For example, Battlewise makes one a tactical genius. Do you consider that a one time benefit- the divine magic permanently modifies the brain, then the magic is done. If so, then changing derivation shouldn't affect that ability. You'd need another type of magic to "undo" what the initial divine energy did. Conversely, if you think that Battlewise is a permanent magical benefit, that there is "magic in the brain", then losing the blood power would affect it.

    Heightened Ability falls into the same question as above. And there are several others to be considered as well. Consider the following:

    Blood History gives you memories, but once the memories are in the brain, is any further magic needed? It'd take more magic to remove the memories, wouldn't it? Or are the memories from a continuing connection to the gods which can be severed?

    Or consider Iron Will, which makes the recipient tougher to dominate. It's not blanket immunity, just make the recipient more resistant to mental attacks. That could be justified as the divine energy making a tweak to the body, and then being done. Or is it a magical essence that remains in the blood always working?

    Something like Long Life is magical, as it makes the body continually behave beyond the normal rules of physiology (it's not just slowing down the metabolism, else the person could barely function). But if it's lost the person would just start aging normally again. (Kind of like relatively time dialation actually...)

    Now, some abilities are clearly magical. They either duplicate magical effects or have to actually be "called" into usage. Regeneration for example goes well beyond any improvements to physiology. Courage is able to overcome magical Fear, so it's clearly magical.

    There might be abilities that might be considered mundane as minor abilities, but are clearly magical at major or great abilities.

    If i were to generalize, i'd say if the effect is overtly magical then losing the derivation would definitely result in losing the blood ability. Otherwise, i think it depends on how you think (or want) blood powers to affect the person.

    Note i'm not saying either way is right or wrong, merely that there need not be a single rule. There are plenty of ways to justify keeping many blood abilities even if the derivation is lost.

    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 02-11-2023 at 09:53 PM.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    So, the only ability you would keep is bloodmark?
    Yes. I see almost all other blood powers as abilities that require the divine connection to the old god's divine essence to be sustained.

    Heightened abilities? Definitely need the old god's power in you to have that.

    Blood history? I have always seen this ability as using the divine power to temporarily connect (sometimes involuntarily) to one's ancestral memories. But those ancestors should be of the same exact bloodline as you for this very magical effect to occur.
    Lose the bloodline, lose the connection to that line of ancestors. Bummer!

    Long life I agree that the benefits should end if the power's lost, but no reverse aging as a result. Just normal aging from that point forward.

    Iron Will, definitely lost, I see this as divine enhancement, same as heightened abilities.

    In general, the memory or history of bloodline abilities should not keep benefiting a divested character or a changed-derivation scion.

    I think Bloodmark should remain unique in its persistance, and even then I think it's more interesting for the bloodmark to change or mutate over time if we are describing a changed derivation in a blooded character. Having a new derivation is much like founding a new Dynasty - and having a new bloodmark form to symbolize it is very appropriate.

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