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  1. #1

    Questions regarding Divine Bloodlines

    Hi all, Happy Holidays!

    I was thinking about bloodlines again, since I had an adventure idea regarding awnshegh, and the character trying to fight and (hopefully) ultimately losing his monster abilities... (specifically, the Wolfman).

    Anyway, on to the questions. If I could get anyone who wants to add their thoughts on this subject, I'd appreciate the ideas...

    1. When the gods died, their essence rained over everything in the vicinity. Those that survived gained bloodlines. Did the survivors gain a mixture of all the bloodlines, or were the survivors "magnetized" (for lack of a better word) to only one kind of derivation?

    2. There seems to be precedence for the fact that scions contain a mixture of more than one derivation - scions are born with their parents' bloodlines, bloodtheft can change your derivation to Azrai, etc. However, does the stronger bloodline "vaporize" (for lack of a better word) the weaker derivations? Game balance, it makes sense, but this would seem to imply that a derivation of Azrai could also switch (back) to another derivation (hence, my adventure idea)... yet the setting also implies that Azrai's derivation is more corrupting, and seems to be the "end of the road" for switching bloodlines.

    3. What happens to a scion of Azrai's physical changes if they do loose their bloodform blood ability? Logic seems to dictate that these changes would remain, but the rules would have the Gorgon, for instance, suddenly losing his bestiality if (for example) he had successfully committed bloodtheft on Michael Roele and (assuming the Roele bloodline was stronger) becoming "normal" again. (This, btw, was the original spark for my idea - what would have happened if the Gorgon succeeded at that fateful moment? Also gives me thoughts on WHY the Gorgon (and awnshegh in general) actually want to commit bloodtheft all the time... they are trying to be rid of their tainted blood!)

    4. Does something else (for example, alignment) factor into derivation changes?
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 12-29-2022 at 05:44 PM.

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    Interesting questions-

    Does the core rulebook say anything about switching derivations through bloodtheft? I don't see anything offhand, suggesting that once you have a particular derivation, you always have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    1. When the gods died, their essence rained over everything in the vicinity. Those that survived gained bloodlines. Did the survivors gain a mixture of all the bloodlines, or were the survivors "magnetized" (for lack of a better word) to only one kind of derivation?
    As i recall, it depended on proximity to the god. So those that were near their god at the time absorbed essentially nothing but that nearby god's essence. However, one could argue that those not near any particular god might have a more proportional mix.

    On the other hand, that derivation is always set and can't be changed. When you absorb the essence of another scion, it's the raw energy only, the derivation determines the shape that it takes (ie the blood abilities gained). Deismaar was a unique event after all, so it may have immediately set everyone to particular lines based purely on the initial quantity; as you say, it permanently "magnetized" each person.

    2. There seems to be precedence for the fact that scions contain a mixture of more than one derivation - scions are born with their parents' bloodlines, bloodtheft can change your derivation to Azrai, etc. However, does the stronger bloodline "vaporize" (for lack of a better word) the weaker derivations? Game balance, it makes sense, but this would seem to imply that a derivation of Azrai could also switch (back) to another derivation (hence, my adventure idea)... yet the setting also implies that Azrai's derivation is more corrupting, and seems to be the "end of the road" for switching bloodlines.
    Offhand i don't know what precedence there is for changing derivation. I'm not saying you're wrong, i just don't know what it is.

    Assuming they can change, then yes i see no reason to not potentially repeatedly change back and forth. But if you agree that Azrai's influence is inherently stronger, then maybe it takes more than an even amount of new essence to overcome Azrai's. The question is whether you want to keep track of how much of each derivation exists, and thus whether a tiny addition can tip the scale. That would certainly require more bookkeeping.

    3. What happens to a scion of Azrai's physical changes if they do loose their bloodform blood ability? Logic seems to dictate that these changes would remain, but the rules would have the Gorgon, for instance, suddenly losing his bestiality if (for example) he had successfully committed bloodtheft on Michael Roele and (assuming the Roele bloodline was stronger) becoming "normal" again. (This, btw, was the original spark for my idea - what would have happened if the Gorgon succeeded at that fateful moment? Also gives me thoughts on WHY the Gorgon (and awnshegh in general) actually want to commit bloodtheft all the time... they are trying to be rid of their tainted blood!)
    I think not, at least not immediately. Bloodform acts over long periods of time, if i recall correctly. Also, isn't there is also a bloodform-like ability for ersheghlien (in Blood Enemies, maybe... can't recall offhand)? So if they manage to change derivation and acquire that ability maybe it starts to undo the Azrai's bloodform to reflect their new (normal) nature.

    4. Does something else (for example, alignment) factor into derivation changes?
    To my knowledge, derivation only depends on birth. Certainly not alignment, as there are many cases of evil characters with non-Azrai essence, and good characters with Azrai's essence.

    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 12-30-2022 at 12:08 AM.

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    Ah, so here's a way to change derivation: the Bloodline Corruption spell (found in Blood Enemies. It converts any bloodline to that of Azrai's.

    So if a spell can convert a derivation to Azrai, then i see no reason another spell can convert it away from Azrai.

    Alternatively, if you want to just get rid of the bloodline, there is the Destroy Bloodline spell (reversed form of Restore Bloodline) from Book of Priestcraft.

    Anyways... just a couple more ideas that you might find useful.


    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 12-30-2022 at 04:56 PM.

  4. #4
    Happy new year to you!

    Fizz answers already covers most, I will try to speculate a bit around bloodlines.

    Bloodline are indeed very static and very selective. There should be a rule somewhere about changing bloodine - that is , if the bloodline you are absorbing gives you more blood points than your current one, you can choose or have to do a blood check (in 2E, roll 1d100, success on 1 - blood) to mantain your bloodline. I'm sorry I can't remember where I had read this, too many books, too many editions (2 are too many).

    So, it's something like this: there are certain qualities to bloodlines that are compatible between each other (otherwise you could not absorb blood points from a different bloodline), and there are qualities that are competitive. The former seems to be tied to the powers strength (more blood = more powers), while the latter is tied to your nature (each bloodline = different set of powers).

    This points out that, while sticking to a certain bloodline, your actual essence is indeed a mixture from essences from the previous gods.

    That being said, Azrai is considered to be much more powerful than any other god alone. Why? Well, it took ALL OF THEM AT ONCE to defeat him. He was alone the god of an empire, his bloodline is much more corruptive, and the most powerful beings in Cerilia all have the blood of Azrai. Makes sense that it is easier to be corrupted by Azrai's bloodline than to get yours back.

    3. What happens to a scion of Azrai's physical changes if they do loose their bloodform blood ability? Logic seems to dictate that these changes would remain, but the rules would have the Gorgon, for instance, suddenly losing his bestiality if (for example) he had successfully committed bloodtheft on Michael Roele and (assuming the Roele bloodline was stronger) becoming "normal" again. (This, btw, was the original spark for my idea - what would have happened if the Gorgon succeeded at that fateful moment? Also gives me thoughts on WHY the Gorgon (and awnshegh in general) actually want to commit bloodtheft all the time... they are trying to be rid of their tainted blood!)
    I think The gorgon would stay the same in body but die in a few months or so. he's 3000+ old and he's not an elf. He's not meant to live that long.

    Here is however, an idea I got from the Blood Enemies (was it?) companion: When does the line between mortal and god ends? By collecting enough divine essence, you may one day have enough power to rival a god, maybe becoming a god yourself. This is how the new gods become so: they were in the first line of battle, and so absorbed so much more divine blood from the old gods. The gorgon never understood why Kriesha and Belinik become gods and he's not. Power is the reason IMHO the Gorgon and other Anwsheghs collect so much blood.

    4. Does something else (for example, alignment) factor into derivation changes?
    Yes, but it's not D&D-related. Madness. IIIRC all with the blood of Azrai have a raging madness that worsens with each bloodform. Reasoning Awnsheghs are lunatic, prone to anger, while other lose their humanity and become animals (as the Seadrake did). Animals may instead gain some sort of intelligence. This is often used as a plot device (why the gorgon will not erase your brecht domain in a year when you conquered his vassal Kiergard? Because he's mad, thats why!) But may be an alternate goal for "bloodline purification": with power comes a price, maybe they are tired of paying such price.

    As for an adventure, there are a lot of spells handling bloodlines, even for bloodline transference or storing (maybe a custom realm spell). Returning to the original form may be a different set of troubles. In a D&D Way, there's spells such as Wish or a permanent Change self, but I would try to think in a BR way just for a change: destroy first, rebuild then.

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    I have been looking into this premise of changing bloodline. Note that everything i'm going to write is under 2nd Ed rules.

    The Core rulebook does not make any mention of changing a derivation. The rules for bloodtheft involve the change in bloodline score only. Also, it's important to note that bloodline score generally changes slowly. If...

    If slayer's score > victim's score then slayer gains 1 bloodline point.
    If slayer's score <= victim's score then slayer gains 2 bloodline points.

    If victim is last of his line, slayer gains 1 point per 5 of the victim's.
    If the slayer uses a tighmaevril weapon in the bloodtheft, the slayer gains one-half the victim's score.

    So, short of the last one, it would take a very long time to change one's derivation by collecting energy of a different derivation. And nearly every event would need to target the same derivation. For example, consider a character that starts with a bloonline of Brenna, score of 20. They slay a scion of Reynir, and raises their bloodline to 22 total (20 Brenna, 2 Reynir). Then they fell another scion of Reynir for 24 total (20 Brenna, 4 Reynir), etc etc.

    In The Book of Regency, there is a section about becoming an awnshegh. This includes some rules for whether a blooded character becomes overwhelmed by the taint of Azrai, and there are some complicated rules for whether the character's bloodline is forcibly changed to that of Azrai's.

    As stated, all the above is for 2nd Ed rules. It'd not suprise me if the 3e conversion did something different. I'll start looking up those next.


    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 01-01-2023 at 12:38 AM.

  6. #6
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    OK, for this post i'm looking at bloodtheft under 3.5E rules, from chapter 2 of the BRCS 3.5 that can be found here on birthright.net .

    Under 3.5, the release of divine essence from a slain scion is handled differently. Instead of a simple one-to-one transfer, there is an explosion of energy released that can affect multiple targets. It's like a mini-Deismaar (maybe that's the intent). Further, more essence is released than under 2nd ed rules, and tighmaevril permits one to steal the entire score rather than half.

    Now, most pertinent to this discussion is the issue of derivation. It comes down to this:

    If recipient scion's score < slain scion's score then there is a chance the derivation can change.

    What's notable here is that it's not the amount absorbed that matters. Only whether the slain's score is greater than the recipient's determines whether there is a chance of change. (Whether it actually changes is determined by an opposed roll.) The recipient can only ever gain 1 to their score (short of tighmaevril) per bloodtheft. But you don't have to worry about keeping track of how much of the score is made up of each derivation.

    So i guess it depends on which ruleset you want to use. Of course, it's your game and your story so you can easily adapt to your needs. I think there a number of mechanisms that will let you achieve your story goals.


    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 01-01-2023 at 12:58 AM.

  7. #7
    If recipient scion's score < slain scion's score then there is a chance the derivation can change.

    What's notable here is that it's not the amount absorbed that matters. Only whether the slain's score is greater than the recipient's determines whether there is a chance of change. (Whether it actually changes is determined by an opposed roll.) The recipient can only ever gain 1 to their score (short of tighmaevril) per bloodtheft. But you don't have to worry about keeping track of how much of the score is made up of each derivation.
    I always was under the impression that it was a matter of absorbed bloodline, not original bloodline. now I see I was wrong. It makes less sense to me that 3/4 blood points may change a 80 BP bloodline.

    Fizz, can you point me some references on tighmaevril? I was looking for them some time ago but never managed to find them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witness3 View Post
    I always was under the impression that it was a matter of absorbed bloodline, not original bloodline. now I see I was wrong.
    I am not sure what you mean. If the absorbed bloodline is stronger than the usurper's, the absorbed bloodline might take over. (Under the 3e conversion rules.)

    Fizz, can you point me some references on tighmaevril? I was looking for them some time ago but never managed to find them.
    In all the sources i mentioned earlier the effect of tighmaevril on bloodtheft is included. I don't know specifics about tighmaevril you mean otherwise.

    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 01-01-2023 at 07:48 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Does the core rulebook say anything about switching derivations through bloodtheft? I don't see anything offhand, suggesting that once you have a particular derivation, you always have it.
    You mean other than those people who have committed bloodtheft and become awnshegh? No. There are no other instances than that, unfortunately.

    However, that, in itself, implies that it can be done, which is why I started having this adventure idea. And then it got me thinking more about the nature of bloodlines, in general...

    The source material and setting seems to imply that derivation change can be done... but, the canon material also only gives instances of changing to the derivation of Azrai.

    I'm not convinced anymore that this reality in the Birthright world is a one-way street...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    As i recall, it depended on proximity to the god. So those that were near their god at the time absorbed essentially nothing but that nearby god's essence. However, one could argue that those not near any particular god might have a more proportional mix.
    Well, not only proximity to the god, IIRC, but also by the nature of the person who absorbed it. People who were more like Reynir, for instance, gained the derivation of Reynir. I'm pretty sure there is canon reference to that latter notion, but I'd had to read the material if you want to challenge me on that point.

    Of course, that could merely be a function of a "goody-two shoes" being most likely to be in Anduiras' camp, and thus closer to that particular god when he died...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    On the other hand, that derivation is always set and can't be changed. When you absorb the essence of another scion, it's the raw energy only, the derivation determines the shape that it takes (ie the blood abilities gained). Deismaar was a unique event after all, so it may have immediately set everyone to particular lines based purely on the initial quantity; as you say, it permanently "magnetized" each person.
    Well, this is the crux of my changed beliefs on bloodlines. Is bloodline energy merely "raw energy"? Or does it still contain the essence of the god that it belonged to?

    The source material doesn't seem to support that it's "neutral god energy", for lack of a better word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Assuming they can change, then yes i see no reason to not potentially repeatedly change back and forth. But if you agree that Azrai's influence is inherently stronger, then maybe it takes more than an even amount of new essence to overcome Azrai's. The question is whether you want to keep track of how much of each derivation exists, and thus whether a tiny addition can tip the scale. That would certainly require more bookkeeping.
    I'm not of the belief that Azrai's blood is stronger than the other derivations... just more seductive, quicker, easier to change to. And, likewise, it's probably harder to change away from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I think not, at least not immediately. Bloodform acts over long periods of time, if i recall correctly. Also, isn't there is also a bloodform-like ability for ersheghlien (in Blood Enemies, maybe... can't recall offhand)? So if they manage to change derivation and acquire that ability maybe it starts to undo the Azrai's bloodform to reflect their new (normal) nature.
    I agree. I don't like the idea that, suddenly, your horns drop off your head, for example. There should be a process of elimination.

    Bloodtrait is the ershegh blood ability.

    I of the belief that, where derivation change occurs, scions should maintain as many of their current blood abilities as possible, according to the rules (i.e. they keep their blood mark, enhanced sense, etc.), but that the blood ability's manifestation changes to the new derivation's effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    To my knowledge, derivation only depends on birth. Certainly not alignment, as there are many cases of evil characters with non-Azrai essence, and good characters with Azrai's essence.
    Well, macro level, yes.

    However, I'm not convinced anymore that alignment doesn't (or shouldn't) play a role in this. After all, there is canon precedence that implies that those of Azrai have feelings and urges related to evilness, and those of Anduiras lean more toward being just and noble. Presumably, the other derivations do as well (Reynir scions are more nature-orientated, Masela hear the call of sea, etc.)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Ah, so here's a way to change derivation: the Bloodline Corruption spell (found in Blood Enemies. It converts any bloodline to that of Azrai's.

    So if a spell can convert a derivation to Azrai, then i see no reason another spell can convert it away from Azrai.

    Alternatively, if you want to just get rid of the bloodline, there is the Destroy Bloodline spell (reversed form of Restore Bloodline) from Book of Priestcraft.
    -Fizz
    Yes, those work. But I'm of the feeling that spells are "unnatural" ways of changing derivation (for lack of a better word). They force a change.

    Bloodtheft... is more "natural" (i.e. that is the original way it happened, at Deismaar).

    And, of course, we have to also consider what happens at conception, when two parents of different derivations have a child. That's the most natural, and principle, instance of derivation change to occur to a scion. Which bloodline wins out? And does the child still have the "loser" parent's derivation in them still?

    So there definitely is precedence for this idea I have...

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