Bloodlines, Inheritance, usurpation, and confusion!

[Question]

No - it depends on the nature of the death.

Usurpation only occurs with a pierce through the heart. Poisoning, for example, does not result in blood-theft, even if it is murder.

Not sure who Berric Cariele is - he must be a fan-created NPC...

Might be wrong, but above my post you can see people saying that all forms of violent death cause bloodtheft.

Berric Cariele is listed in the Birthright.net Cariele article, i dont know if hes a fan created NPC but the article doesnt seem to specify one way or the other.

I'm not even sure if AD&D had any history writes up for the realms. The Atlas and Ruins of Empires doesnt give a detailed history write up for the realms and Cariele never got a "Player's secrets" sourcebook.

[masterdaorin]

Might be wrong, but above my post you can see people saying that all forms of violent death cause bloodtheft.

Yes, the 3e made it merely "the spilling of blood", not, as Osprey confirmed with the 2e rules, that only a pierce to the heart enabled bloodtheft.

I do like the 3e new form, making the divine essence - literally - locked in the blood.

But the idea of the heart of the source of power does hold merit, I must admit...

What is everyone's preference?

[AndrewTall]

Some gain from killing a scion makes much more sense when you consider the idea of Awnsheghlien actively hunting scions to commit bloodtheft, and 3e makes it easier than a called shot to the heart for them to do that. That said there's no reason not to have 2 tiers of bloodline theft, one fairly minor from a violent death in the vicinity, and a larger one if you go 'full highlander'.

I would note however that socially I would expect very strong memes against committing bloodtheft, partly to prevent the slaughter of the nobility, partly because of the association (and risk of turning into) awnsheghlien, partly because of the impiety of stealing godly essence from its 'rightful owner' - there will be some circumstances when it is permitted, even perhaps encouraged, but there will be social rules...

[masterdaorin]

Precisely...

Plus the fact, lets not forget, that the divine essence itself seems to have a will of its own...

I think that fact usually gets lost in the "flashy-ness" of bloodlines... it's a symbiotic relationship, I'd wager...

[masterdaorin]

I would note however that socially I would expect very strong memes against committing bloodtheft, partly to prevent the slaughter of the nobility, partly because of the association (and risk of turning into) awnsheghlien, partly because of the impiety of stealing godly essence from its 'rightful owner' - there will be some circumstances when it is permitted, even perhaps encouraged, but there will be social rules...

I've always wondered about the latter idea... particularly because of the reasons you stated before that last idea.

I'm not even sure bloodtheft would be encouraged under any circumstances... too much risk of the blood of Azrai breeding true, I'd wager...

I also think that the idea is present in the canon sources that all scions have a mixture of the essence of all the gods... one's bloodline merely has more of, or emphasizes one god's essence, if you will, over the other six within their bloodline...

This subject is definitely one that I think this site should more fully develop... nail down specifics on...

[AndrewTall]

In society there are always trade-offs, many scions will want to strengthen their bloodline through bloodtheft, so you get a strong drive for acceptance amongst weaker scions, matched against a strong drive against by stronger scions fearing attack. The strong ones would happily gain strength through bloodtheft themselves of course, but they are out-numbered so overall against.

So I would expect that, as with dueling codes, there would be very strict social rules about when scions can openly try to commit bloodtheft - but as with dueling codes (indeed likely the two would be merged) there would be times when 2 scions can fight with the winner having the right to claim the bloodline of the slain.

Of course it is also possible, as with duels, that there is a social acceptance of the practice in some circumstances, but it remains technically illegal to reduce the number of cases, or it is legal but considered a sin under local church law, so a victorious scion would have to make atonement to the appropriate church.

I would agree that many, if not all, scions have a bloodline that isn't 'pure', so it has traces of other bloodlines, like Azrai, which under the right circumstance could lead the scion to change their bloodline derivation (particularly with Azrai), either because the scion commits bloodtheft and 'tips the balance', or their actions/alignment strongly favour a different old god than the one whose bloodline is 'theirs' leading to the weaker bloodline to strengthen and come to dominate.

[masterdaorin]

I would think that bloodtheft would be one of those things that are considered taboo - like regular theft, but more personal.

It would be akin to being considered as stealing someone's soul.

As such, I'm willing to bet that bloodtheft is very much frowned upon, under almost any circumstance.

Probably, it would involve a judge and legal stuff, the involvement of the local church, and only "acceptable" on convicted non-noble scions.

Considering the time period, the noble class would be "judged by their peers" and, as such, things are usually settled by duels - and, rightly, would have its own set of rules. But I'm willing to bet that bloodtheft is a restriction - too base a reason to be the outcome of a duel of honour.

Of course, it would happen anyway - people being people.

Now, in Vos society, on the on the other hand, yes - it probably happens as a matter of course...

[Osprey]

I would agree that many, if not all, scions have a bloodline that isn't 'pure', so it has traces of other bloodlines, like Azrai, which under the right circumstance could lead the scion to change their bloodline derivation (particularly with Azrai), either because the scion commits bloodtheft and 'tips the balance', or their actions/alignment strongly favour a different old god than the one whose bloodline is 'theirs' leading to the weaker bloodline to strengthen and come to dominate.

I have thought about this idea a lot over the years. There are pros and cons to the canon way of "all or nothing" bloodlines - that is, whichever derivation wins in a bloodtheft completely subsumes the losing derivation.

I always believed this meant that the losing bloodline is defeated and transformed into the winning bloodline - especially because it usually only represents a point or 2 of bloodline strength gained,a tiny fraction of the user's total power.

Spiritually, I imagined a cosmology where the essences of the old gods are literally fighting for survival and growth, by their very nature converting any divine power they meet into more of their own essence if they can (and Azrai's essence being far better at this than the other old gods). So over time there are 2 ways the old gods' essence grows: through dominating the bloodlines of natural children of scions, and through dominating the bloodlines of bloodtheft victims.

There may actually be some measurable total amount of each old god's divine energy surviving through mortals and a few objects on Aebrynis, and successful lines like Anduiras and Azrai may have grown significantly in total energy since Deismaar.

One could then speculate whether the old gods' bloodlines are still connected to or empowering their successor deities?
(In my version of Cerilia I do have the temple organizations and total worshippers focused through them having a major effect on the current deities' respective divine power, since they are so closely tied to Cerilia and nowhere else as far as we know).

Dormant, subsumed but not destroyed bloodlines can make for fun complexity in bloodlines, but seem to want to change the above metaphysics into something more like a zero-sum equation, where no bloodline is ever destroyed or transformed, only... enslaved? vassalized? - to other lines.
This makes the growth of new bloodlines through sexual reproduction something of a different issue (that is, where does the new bloodline energy come from? Can it actually grow? Is natural reproduction the only way the old gods' energies can actually increase?)

[Osprey]

I would think that bloodtheft would be one of those things that are considered taboo - like regular theft, but more personal.

It would be akin to being considered as stealing someone's soul.

As such, I'm willing to bet that bloodtheft is very much frowned upon, under almost any circumstance.

Probably, it would involve a judge and legal stuff, the involvement of the local church, and only "acceptable" on convicted non-noble scions.

Considering the time period, the noble class would be "judged by their peers" and, as such, things are usually settled by duels - and, rightly, would have its own set of rules. But I'm willing to bet that bloodtheft is a restriction - too base a reason to be the outcome of a duel of honour.

Of course, it would happen anyway - people being people.

Now, in Vos society, on the on the other hand, yes - it probably happens as a matter of course...

In Anuire at least, there is an awful lot of "trial by combat" culture that would certainly include rules for when bloodtheft is "OK by Haelyn!" Cuiraecen would tend to follow with looser rules and even encouragement of bloodtheft of evil foes in single combat. (Risk of taint is part of the spiritual trial, right? Great basis for fallen paladins too! ).

Anuireans justify wars for a lot of reasons, and I think the wars then justify a lot of violent acts that are unacceptable in peacetime. Bloodtheft on the battlefield would certainly be at the top of those allowances.
I think in well-justified wars where an invader or other enemy regent is publicly made out to be a villain, bloodthefting the villain and their scion followers either on the battlefield or even as a form of execution would be acceptable to most Anuireans so long as they believed in the victims' villainy. Good PR campaigns / diplomacy / propaganda tend to really matter here, for regents in particular.

Brechts have a lot of dueling too, but I imagine they get pretty loose with the ethical rules, as the one left living is clearly the real winner at the end of any duel!

Khinasi would be all about the rules of the duel not the participants. I am not sure how Avani feels about bloodtheft, but I expect her temples would influence Khinasi laws and mores about bloodtheft the most in those lands.

Vos = get it if you can!

[masterdaorin]

Dormant, subsumed but not destroyed bloodlines can make for fun complexity in bloodlines, but seem to want to change the above metaphysics into something more like a zero-sum equation, where no bloodline is ever destroyed or transformed, only... enslaved? vassalized? - to other lines.
This makes the growth of new bloodlines through sexual reproduction something of a different issue (that is, where does the new bloodline energy come from? Can it actually grow? Is natural reproduction the only way the old gods' energies can actually increase?)

Yes, to both ideas.

This is a fight for survival - and not, as most people would likely presume, between mortals...

That's what the data in the canon seems to indicate...