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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    * Yes, Fizz, I considered that the obviously non-Anuirean-looking names are just "translations" into English, but then, why didn't they do that for the other place names in Cerilia... or only did it for some names, and not others? Just saying...
    To answer you question, for the same reason that names vary in the real world. The name "Chicago" comes from a native american word. But other cities' names come from regular words, like "Newport". Each has its own unique origin history.

    Or, the creators may have wanted some names to have a clear origin that we english speakers immediately understand. In other cases, maybe they wanted a non-english name in order to evoke a specific feeling. Or perhaps, more likely, they thought it sounded cool.

    There is no standard for how places get named, in the real world or fantasy. It's not like the migrants arrived and said "Ok everyone, as we explore the continent, let's use the following guidelines for naming places..."

    My point is, i don't think it needs to be over-thought, because there are a hundreds of reasons how name origins can differ. Having a variety in names and their origins makes things interesting.

    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 07-07-2022 at 01:47 AM.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Doyle's Avatar
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    As a 'real world reference', I have been involved in (without doing any of the actual work), the "Naming rules for places in Victoria" which attempts to add some sort of structure and cultural sensitivity to places names in this state in Australia. place names here are a mix of cultures, but primarily either Anglo or First Nation peoples. The people who did the actual work on this canvassed a lot of areas where a place name was unusual and found that no-one living there knew why it was called that. For one where they found the location name translated to something vulgar (see what you get for angering the culture that is displaced), the locals were shocked, but on reflection decided not to have the name changed out of respect for the previous culture.
    English speaking culture has been here for less than 250 years and an accurate map of the state shows a similar level of diversity in naming as the Anuire map.

    Regardless of if the name on the Cerilian map was added because it sounded cool, or was a well thought out amalgamation of cultures to hint at a part of the history of a town or province, I'm happy for my players and NPC's to clash over how a place name is pronounced.

    I'm not arguing with any of the (excellent) points above, but I'm suggesting not to get too hung up on where a few place names in an area go against the suggested RW cultural naming rules. Six different human cultures displaced the locals and empire boundaries changed over the next few thousand years - it should be a little messy.
    Doyle

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Or, the creators may have wanted some names to have a clear origin that we english speakers immediately understand. In other cases, maybe they wanted a non-english name in order to evoke a specific feeling. Or perhaps, more likely, they thought it sounded cool.

    ...

    My point is, i don't think it needs to be over-thought, because there are a hundreds of reasons how name origins can differ. Having a variety in names and their origins makes things interesting.

    -Fizz
    Completely agree you and Doyle. What you just said actually supports my supposition that the languages of Cerilia have not been static, and have evolved over time.

    Take, for example, the proper name: Liliene Swordwraith. It seems to have both a "traditional" Anuirean name with a "non-traditional" Anuirean name. For whatever reason. Whether you believe "Liliene" is the former, or the latter, is only relevant when pondering the matter for its own sake.

    The mostly likely "real-world" answer, of course, is that the creators didn't have the time to completely make up names, so they just made stuff up on the fly and put in what they thought sounded cool.

    My point is, that works to our advantage for the purposes of this thread. Anyway, I'm not going to beat it to death. I was merely musing aloud with all my above theories. I need to start somewhere, with something, regarding how to tackle obviously divergent names.

    And, on a side note, doesn't this thread's premise make you really start to question the assumed assumptions regarding language within the BR world?

    I'm telling you, Goblin... the elves taught them "civilization"... wouldn't language be one of the core elements of that?

    Makes you go "hmmm..." Like I said, I love BR...

    My thoughts on dwarven civilization have been affected as well... (like, where did the dwarves first learn metallurgy...? The elves perhaps...? Just saying...).
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 07-09-2022 at 11:31 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Overall I love this analysis of the language families mixing and evolving - great deconstruction work!

    There was 1 bit at the end I wondered about:

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Andu as being (Anglo-)Saxon makes sense to me now, considered that that ancient language evolved along with the Rhandel (the ancient Brecht) and the Lurech (the ancient Rjuven) languages... all Germanic/Scandinavian roots next to each other in Aduria.
    Are you using the Germanic language relations to decide that these 3 tribes were neighbors in Aduria? Or did you have another source from the material saying this?

    It's certainly possible, and would explain why multiple tribes migrate around the same time, recognizing that neighboring tribes influence each other through trade, marriage, etc.

    But pressure from Azrai's empire expanding seems to be the canonical reason we are given for their migrations, and that empire could have been expanding very rapidly to cause multiple flights from Aduria in a relatively short period.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Completely agree you and Doyle. What you just said actually supports my supposition that the languages of Cerilia have not been static, and have evolved over time.
    I don't think anyone disagreed that languages are always evolving as the nations / demographics do. I was only responding your question in post #40, where you asked why some things were translated and others were not. You seemed to be suggesting that all naming conventions in a region should be consistent. But all's good.

    Take, for example, the proper name: Liliene Swordwraith. It seems to have both a "traditional" Anuirean name with a "non-traditional" Anuirean name. For whatever reason. Whether you believe "Liliene" is the former, or the latter, is only relevant when pondering the matter for its own sake.

    The mostly likely "real-world" answer, of course, is that the creators didn't have the time to completely make up names, so they just made stuff up on the fly and put in what they thought sounded cool.
    "Swordwraith" sounds cool, so that might have been one where they decided that putting into english really helped evoke the flavour of this character in a way that a translation of "sword" and "wraith" could not have to us english speakers.

    But i agree, timing undoubtably played a role in these decisions too. Writers have deadlines.

    I'm telling you, Goblin... the elves taught them "civilization"... wouldn't language be one of the core elements of that?
    What "civilization" entails is entirely vague. It certainly may have had an influence. But the goblins could have had their own language before they were taught civilization. Then, as they rebelled against the elves over the centuries, the goblins may have deliberately scoured many of the elven influences out of pure defiance. So now goblinoid is its own unique language. We're dealing with thousands of years of history, so anything is plausible.

    The few canon goblin words we have (such as "Kartathok") seem radically different from the Welsh/Gaelic-based language we know elvish to be (at least to my ear).

    Makes you go "hmmm..." Like I said, I love BR...
    Certainly no disagreement here.

    My thoughts on dwarven civilization have been affected as well... (like, where did the dwarves first learn metallurgy...? The elves perhaps...? Just saying...).
    Per the Chronicle of Cerilia (Dragon #241), the dwarves first emerged from the ground about 15,000 years ago, but then retreated. There is no mention of the dwarves needing to be taught anything. It is also stated that for most of their history the elves and dwarves just left each other alone. So given that the dwarves have always been an underground species, i think they would have developed metallurgy on their own. It'd have been required to be living underground in the first place. Just my thought...

    I think i lean towards more diversity in the languages due to the vast time spans involved- lots of time for multiple languages to evolve and diverge from one another.


    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 07-11-2022 at 02:33 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    There was 1 bit at the end I wondered about:

    Are you using the Germanic language relations to decide that these 3 tribes were neighbors in Aduria? Or did you have another source from the material saying this?

    It's certainly possible, and would explain why multiple tribes migrate around the same time, recognizing that neighboring tribes influence each other through trade, marriage, etc.

    But pressure from Azrai's empire expanding seems to be the canonical reason we are given for their migrations, and that empire could have been expanding very rapidly to cause multiple flights from Aduria in a relatively short period.
    Well, both, actually. Germanic relations as well as the core canon migration material.

    In the absence of any other input from the community here in another thread, I'm going to have to use Ian Hoskins' work regarding Aduria, however. No sense creating something whole cloth when most of the community here has kept this as the definitive Aduria material.

    For my part, it makes sense. These tribes lived on Aduria, most likely in (relatively) close proximity to each other, and so would, in Aebrynis' pre-history, have had some kind of cultural/language ties.

    At the very least, I think that the creators were deliberately trying to evoke real-world comparisons when they developed all these aspects regarding this fantasy world. Unfortunately, as happens when you are brainstorming when under a deadline, things just get mish-mashed together without pondering the greater context that such things have on the whole.

    I mean, take the one simple facet that is this thread's subject: language has a *huge* impact on a culture's make-up and development. Now that I'm actually putting some thought into this subject after all these years playing BR, I've had a seismic shift in some sense regarding how the continent of Cerilia "works"... !

    It's strange and wonderful at the same time. I'll elaborate a little further in responding to Fizz's latest questions...

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I don't think anyone disagreed that languages are always evolving as the nations / demographics do. I was only responding your question in post #40, where you asked why some things were translated and others were not. You seemed to be suggesting that all naming conventions in a region should be consistent. But all's good.
    Well, I suppose that I should have also mentioned in post #40 that, as I have been combing though all of the regional sourcebooks, I have noticed that Anuire is also the only one that has names with these seemingly dual language roots. My apologies for not being more thorough.

    I've noticed that because I've just finished creating a spreadsheet that lists all of the names in all of the BR sourcebooks - it has almost 900 names from all of these materials. I may have missed one though, so if you want to press me, I'll go through the entire document and double check the above statement that I just made is, indeed, fact.

    As such, if the creators' intention was to "invoke" certain translations in favor of language realism, why didn't they do that for the other four human cultures?

    I am now of the opinion that, and I'm sure rather without meaning to, the creators have indicated to us that the Anuirean culture is more "base-line" (i.e. English and English language) than what is actually indicated to us via the Cardsheet #1 language sheet.

    Now, I already agree with you Fizz, that whether that means that they were always this way, or have evolved over time, is a matter of debate. I'm choosing, now, in light of my recent newfound enlightenment regarding language in BR, to believe that it is a result of the latter, rather than the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    What "civilization" entails is entirely vague. It certainly may have had an influence. But the goblins could have had their own language before they were taught civilization. Then, as they rebelled against the elves over the centuries, the goblins may have deliberately scoured many of the elven influences out of pure defiance. So now goblinoid is its own unique language. We're dealing with thousands of years of history, so anything is plausible.

    The few canon goblin words we have (such as "Kartathok") seem radically different from the Welsh/Gaelic-based language we know elvish to be (at least to my ear).
    Oh, I'm 100% positive now that it did have an influence. Our real-life examples from (even just recent) history are replete with how civilizations that have invaded or taken over, and that have tried to "civilized" one race, involves language among nearly every other aspect of the dominated race's identity.

    Our own country, Fizz, is but one example.

    And, said race has never been completely "civilized", of course, but always kept something of their previous cultural practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Per the Chronicle of Cerilia (Dragon #241), the dwarves first emerged from the ground about 15,000 years ago, but then retreated. There is no mention of the dwarves needing to be taught anything. It is also stated that for most of their history the elves and dwarves just left each other alone. So given that the dwarves have always been an underground species, i think they would have developed metallurgy on their own. It'd have been required to be living underground in the first place. Just my thought...

    I think i lean towards more diversity in the languages due to the vast time spans involved- lots of time for multiple languages to evolve and diverge from one another.
    Here are my thoughts on dwarven (and goblin) interactions with the elves - and, note, that this has come about only because I recently had a thought about how language works in Cerilia...

    The dwarves emerged from their caves under their main mountain in Khurin-Azur (I'm choosing to believe that Khurin-Azur is the birthplace of dwarven culture - but that's another thread). They were primitive. They had first contact with the elves when they saw that *more* mountains were out there. And everything was good.

    There were, initially, peaceful relations. The elves learned some stuff from the dwarves (i.e. basic mining techniques, different kinds of metals, etc.) and, in turn, saw opportunity to help their "primitive" new friends (i.e. we've found out a better way to smelt this kind of metal - e.g. probably bronze/iron, but perhaps others, like mithral).

    But lots of elves found those "dirty savages" quite crude, and rather too primitive for their refined tastes. Certain elements gained hold in the elven circles of power, and began to exploit the dwarves. And then others desired to bring them "civilization", in order to counteract the first element (they wished to "help" the dwarves rather than merely exploit them).

    The dwarves didn't like all of this fussing and concern over them and, knowing that the elves didn't like the mountains, chose to retreat back into their caves and not be bothered anymore. I'm sure there was some bloodshed involved. Would explain the "Tolkien-esque" prevailing sentiment that seems to permeate all D&D products regarding relations between dwarves and elves... anyway, I digress.

    Fast forward six thousand years.

    Goblins and orogs begin to emerge from their mountain cave in the Stonecrowns. They, too, are very primitive. Stone tools, grunts for language, etc.

    By then, the elves have had plenty of practice with "civilizing" another race (i.e. the dwarves). This time, the elves want to "do it right", to get it right the first time, so they don't repeat the same mistakes they did with the dwarves and lose them (hey, its useful having someone else to do your laundry and cook your meals, after all... and those darn pixies just don't settle down for any length of time! ).

    Can we take a page from the Canadian/US/Australian government's playbook, perhaps? .

    So, the elves say, hey, noble savages, lets help you be better. You are so nasty, living there under the mountain as you are, so lets move you where its better, in the forests. Oh, you can still live *near* the mountains, on the edges of the forests (no, we don't want you mucking up the best parts of the world, that is to say, *in* the forests, where we like to live). So the elves move them all around Cerilia, where they are "better suited" to learn from their move civilized betters (i.e., the elven nations move populations of goblins and orogs around to serve as [menial labor/slaves] for their people).

    And: no, we can't understand what you are saying. No, grunts don't count as language. Our language is so much more refined and elegant, wouldn't you agree? (I cannot now escape the thought of goblin butlers, talking in a Queen's English, waiting on elven nobles... but, again, I digress).

    They teach them better mining (which they learned from the dwarves), working with iron (which they probably taught the dwarves), etc. etc., etc. But then, one day, some brilliant orog priest has had enough. By now, dwarves have come back out of their mountains, and the goblins and orogs see that life can be different, seeing that the dwarves don't like being bullied by the elves and, by now, have advanced technologically enough that they can hold their own against the elves.

    This orog says, hey, Torazan thinks we should be the masters, too. Those dirty dwarves! Even they think they are better than the elves, and us, and squash us under their boot too! No, way!

    So, this orog teaches rebellion to the other goblin slaves. Having learned from their elven masters well, they, in turn, enslave the goblins.

    Then a brilliant goblin priest says, hey, we don't have to take that, Kartathok says so, and so the goblins rebel against the orogs, and the elves, and the dwarves (but, mostly the elves, and then the orogs afterwards). It culminates in the Humanoid Wars, with the death of King Sidhe Brachaleim, and the rest, as they say, is history.

    Orogs, having a renewed sense of identity, revert back to "the old ways". Probably includes language, since the way they have been forced to talk all those centuries is associated with the hated elves.

    So, too, with goblin society.

    Of course, the above is all a gross over-simplification, because this is a discussion board thread, not a dissertation of Cerilian historical cultural groups. But, I hope everyone here catches my drift, as the saying goes...

    I do wonder now, however, how much of that elven influence still lingers within all three of these cultural groups... sorry, four, if we count the humans...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I don't think anyone disagreed that languages are always evolving as the nations / demographics do. I was only responding your question in post #40, where you asked why some things were translated and others were not. You seemed to be suggesting that all naming conventions in a region should be consistent. But all's good.
    -Fizz
    Also, considering the limited timeframe span of recent Cerilian history, and the fact that these language groups are limited (if we are to take as fact that there really is only five human language groups in Cerilia), that there necessarily has to be *some* consistency within each language itself.

    Don't get me wrong, I want there to be more individuality - I'm of the opinion that there should be more language barriers, not less. But that's not what we have - at least, according to the rules of the game's design. Gamers don't seem to want to struggle with language barriers, by and large, or at least that seems to be the design philosophy in the rules of D&D, including the latest edition.

    So, if you speak Basarji, for example, you can be understood all across the region, and with others who speak it. I don't think it should be this way, mind you, but that's what it is. It does make sense, of course, limiting it, even though that isn't realistic. Likewise, there has to be an in-game explanation for this very fact. The questions are, why, and how? That's what I'm hoping, in part, to solve with this thread.

    I just chalk up these variations as "minor dialects". So, I would say to my players, "This person is speaking in an Ariyan dialect of Basarji, as you remember from your time spent in the City of Ariya", as some flavor text when introducing people to the players.

    But we still need to know the answers to those two questions, if we are to create a Cardsheet #1 for these languages... The Anuirean language has received the most complete explanation so far... incomplete as it is... the other languages, not so much...

    Like, for example, I'm beginning to dispute the Arabic influences of Basarji... it seems to be... a real hodgepodge of other languages... we'll see... haven't gotten to that language yet...
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 07-12-2022 at 06:42 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    As such, if the creators' intention was to "invoke" certain translations in favor of language realism, why didn't they do that for the other four human cultures?
    Well, they did. In Rjurik, you have the realms of Giantdowns and Realm of the White Witch. In Brechtur you have the cities of Blackgate, Fellport, the province of Cornelius' Landing. In Khinasi you have have the province of Green Mountains (in Suiriene), Fingers of Ayan (in Khourane). And in Vosgaard you have provinces of Akar Bluffs, and the realm of Battle Fens and The Icemarch.

    That list is by no means exhaustive- i have no doubt i've missed others. But english does get used elsewhere. And even for the elves and dwarves (Thorn Throne, Fallen Rock, etc). And Anuire may have more specifics than other regions. But Anuire is by no means unique.

    I am now of the opinion that, and I'm sure rather without meaning to, the creators have indicated to us that the Anuirean culture is more "base-line" (i.e. English and English language) than what is actually indicated to us via the Cardsheet #1 language sheet.
    Anuire is the "default" region, i agree. And i think that's the case because it's the setting that Rich Baker had developed for an early novel of his ("Kingmaker" i think it was to be called). So Anuire probably had more details already "ready to go" when it became part of Birthright. And the other regions only gained names with the expansions, so different authors / timelines, etc.

    Here are my thoughts on dwarven (and goblin) interactions with the elves - and, note, that this has come about only because I recently had a thought about how language works in Cerilia...
    Your envisionment of the dwarves is vastly different from mine. Here's mine: the dwarves are creatures of stone, very elemental in nature. So i think they may have existed well before the elves ever did. It is stated they emerged from the "depths of the earth". To me that implies they were down there a long time. They didn't "discover" the surface until much later.

    The dwarves .... were primitive. They had first contact with the elves when they saw that *more* mountains were out there. And everything was good.
    There were, initially, peaceful relations. The elves learned some stuff from the dwarves (i.e. basic mining techniques, different kinds of metals, etc.) and, in turn, saw opportunity to help their "primitive" new friends (i.e. we've found out a better way to smelt this kind of metal - e.g. probably bronze/iron, but perhaps others, like mithral).
    The dwarves must have had more advanced mining techniques already in order to have worked their way from the "depths of the earth" to the surface. (How else to dig through hard rock?) That requires an advanced civilization. So they weren't primitive. In some ways they may have been more advanced than the elves.

    Now elves, it is stated often, are arrogant with a superiority complex, so they may have perceived dwarves as brutes (they do everyone). But dwarves are proud and untrusting, so i don't see the dwarves as accepting any form of elven supreriority.

    Further, mining is not consistent with elven proclivity of living in harmony with nature. I don't see the elves improving mining techniques because you need to have an established industry to learn those sorts of things, and such an industry would be anathema to the elves. (A civilization that lives in the trees will never invent the microchip. )

    Your reasons for the animosity of the species are reasonable, but i think the dwarves came out of the mountains quite civilized already.

    This orog says, hey, Torazan thinks we should be the masters, too. Those dirty dwarves! Even they think they are better than the elves, and us, and squash us under their boot too! No, way!
    ...
    Then a brilliant goblin priest says, hey, we don't have to take that, Kartathok says so, and so the goblins rebel against the orogs, and the elves, and the dwarves (but, mostly the elves, and then the orogs afterwards).
    The orogs and goblins have gods. The elves never have. So if the goblins were so primitive when the elves taught them civilization, how did the goblins have and retain their own religiosity? For that reason, the goblins must already have had their own civiliization and language before the influence of the elves.

    The orogs were never surface dwellers (so far as i recall). I see them as developing parallel to the dwarves.

    Of course, what you do in your own game is your business. But that's how i see the prehistory.


    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 07-13-2022 at 04:20 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    So, if you speak Basarji, for example, you can be understood all across the region, and with others who speak it. I don't think it should be this way, mind you, but that's what it is. It does make sense, of course, limiting it, even though that isn't realistic. Likewise, there has to be an in-game explanation for this very fact. The questions are, why, and how? That's what I'm hoping, in part, to solve with this thread.
    I don't think this is unrealistic when you consider that the five human languages each have a common starting point (in the not-so-distant past, as you say) of the original tribes. Nothern Khinasi has the same ancestors that southern Khinasi does, and they were never in isolation from one another. So there hasn't been an opportunity for a significant schism of the language. Dialecs sure, but retaining a common core makes sense.

    -Fizz

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