Pronunciation Guide

[Fizz]

Correct, I agree that we should use the Welsh translations rules for Anuirean. That's already established.

No, I'm not saying that at all. Welsh can be used as a basis for Elvish. I'm not an expert in Welsh, but all the pronounciations used throughout various sources seem to be consistent with Welsh. (As far as i can tell, Elvish is Welsh.)

I'm saying that we don't need to use English (or anything else) as a guideline for Anuirean. The original boxed set already provided rules for Anuirean pronounciation, and it doesn't sound particularly like English and certainly not like Welsh.

That being said, there a lot of non-Welsh names in Anuire.

Are there any Welsh names in Anuire? I can't think of any. I daresay that all names in Anuire are non-Welsh (with the exception of Elven realms).

That's neither here nor there, though - just a side thought. We'll keep Anuirean as Welsh for the purposes of this thread/site.

I'm a bit confused from where this comes, because earlier you were talking about using English as the guide for Anuirean. "English is the same as Anuirean" you said in post #27. So i don't know how it has suddenly become Welsh.


-FIzz

[Witness3]

Woah, 15+ posts since last time I checked, you guys sure are committed to this.

I think there is one premise about BR cultures that we should not forget, it's that they are always hybrids between two or more cultures. I think language should reflect that In a way , including pronunciation.

Anuire is a hybrid between medieval france and england, Rjuriks are a hybrid between celts and norse, vos are a hybrid between rus and mongols, Basarij to me were always like mediterranean islamic states or islamic spain, if you can call it that, with a hint of egyptian (the whole masetian issue). Brecht range from Holland to Poland, so basically *any* kind of germanic.

I actually bend anuirean a bit on closed 'e' , less vibrating 'r' and move accents to make, i.e. , House Volarae sounds like Volàr' or Voləɹ, wich sounds really french to me.

As for other cultures, I decided in my campaign it was a good occasion for being multi-cultural, adding more 'foreign' to other species. Enough with northen europe! My halflings speak portoguese/spanish, Mierese speaks esperanto, Dwarves are actually hebrew/yiddish in both culture aestethich and language, As for the elves I still can't settle on something, I guess they should be welsh, but they seems too close to anuirean by then.

[Sorontar]

I have lots to respond to here.

Let's start with Anuirean. It is canon that the old Anuirean language is that of the Andu. For that reason, it is known as Andu. We have various languages on Terra that we may consider equivalent - Latin, Old Greek or even Sanskrit. Andu is not widely used but there will probably be some rituals and names that still hark back to the old tongue in the same way that Latin is the traditional language of the Roman Catholic Church, and thus medieval ceremonies, even if the local language was spoken the rest of the time. One of the reasons that the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles and Beowulf were so notable to English literature was that they were not written in Latin. They were in the Saxon language (mainly West Saxon area, or Wessex, dialect I believe), which was derived from the language of Saxony which is now in modern Germany (the Saxon forms of "regular" verbs became the English "irregular" verbs like see/saw/seen and has/have/had).

Welsh is one of the modern Celtic tongues, like Scot Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Breton, and their cousins Cornish and Manx. The same family of languages has the languages of the Gauls and other Italic-Celtic langues as its predecessor. They are all part of the Indo-European languages.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ropeanTree.svg

Welsh, like all languages has its own way of various combinations of letters. "wyn" or "ll" in Welsh is not always pronounced the same way as an English speaker may pronounce it. Welsh placenames (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_toponymy) are sometimes known for being long descriptive names, e.g., Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch, but this is not always so. Yes, some of the placenames in Anuire do look Welsh-like, especially in their use of "oe" and "gh" but a lot of them don't as well.

Farsi is modern Persian, and is spoken in Iran and Afghanistan. After the Sept 11 attack, Western countries became much more interested in it.

IIRC western science has a lot to thank medieval Arab speakers for because a lot of the Ancient Greek writings were translated into Arabic then made their way into Europe via the Moors through the Iberian Penisula, I think via one of the Holy Roman Emperors translating them into Latin or the language of their court (medieval French?).

The gypsies of Romani have various variations of their tongues or variations of the local language. I believe there is even a Gypsy Welsh - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language

Modern French, Italian , Spanish, Romanian, and Portuguese are all Romance languages, with Latin being one of their predecessors. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages

Anyway, that hopefully gives you some idea of how those Terran languages sit with respect to each other. Sanskrit is the oldest. Latin is the traditional old language of the church and bureaucracy in parts of Europe.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

Anuire is a hybrid between medieval france and england,

Rich Baker once described it as an amalgam of medieval England, the Roman Empire, and Gondor. He felt Anuirean sounded southern mediterranean

Rjuriks are a hybrid between celts and norse, vos are a hybrid between rus and mongols, Basarij to me were always like mediterranean islamic states or islamic spain, if you can call it that, with a hint of egyptian (the whole masetian issue). Brecht range from Holland to Poland, so basically *any* kind of germanic.

Well, the Basarji had no connection to the Masetians. The Khinasi are primarily of Basarji origin with a hint of the Masetians, who i always thought were meant to be an analog for Greece. I thought i read that somewhere... i'll see if i can find it.

As for other cultures, I decided in my campaign it was a good occasion for being multi-cultural, adding more 'foreign' to other species. Enough with northen europe! My halflings speak portoguese/spanish, Mierese speaks esperanto, Dwarves are actually hebrew/yiddish in both culture aestethich and language,

I don't know if i could roleplay a Hebrew dwarf... If we look at dwarven place names (ie, Baruk-Azhik), what language do they most closely resemble? Anything?

As for the elves I still can't settle on something, I guess they should be welsh, but they seems too close to anuirean by then.

I think the elves are the easiest, since all their names and pronounciation are clearly welsh. The rules for Anuirean are nothing like Welsh.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen..._pronunciation

Another interesting thought: the elves are historically highly resistant to the newer races on the continent, and combined with being immortal, their language has probably changed the least over the centuries.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Now we're getting somewhere!

I don't know if i could roleplay a Hebrew dwarf... If we look at dwarven place names (ie, Baruk-Azhik), what language do they most closely resemble? Anything?

Exactly! That's what I'm aiming to solve with this thread/endeavour? Anyone want to take a stab at it?

I think the elves are the easiest, since all their names and pronounciation are clearly welsh. The rules for Anuirean are nothing like Welsh.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen..._pronunciation

Another interesting thought: the elves are historically highly resistant to the newer races on the continent, and combined with being immortal, their language has probably changed the least over the centuries.

-Fizz

I agree - elvish remains unchanged.

Well, in regards to Anuirean, Welsh/not Welsh, it doesn't matter. My intention is not to rewrite Anuirean.

I was thinking out loud with all my other posts, and just making some guesses and suppositions. Why? Because, like the real-world, I choose to believe (excepting the elves and the other ancient races) that the world of Cerilia isn't static, and even languages change over time. There should also be a logical progression in that change. For example, how to explain all of the "non-Anuirean-like" names in Anuire, like 'Swordwraith', 'Bayview', 'Sunken Lands', when we also have 'Caer Callin' and 'Ghoere', for example? Sounds like they come from an English-speaking background to me... so, why? Perhaps the Anuireans have changed their language over time...?

That's all I was getting at in the above posts, plus trying to encourage people to add their own thoughts to this thread, so that we get moving forward on this task.

(The above wasn't directed at anybody here, btw, just making my position clear here).

To be clear:

I want to have available for all BR players/DMs a "Cardsheet #1" for all the important languages within Cerilia. We have the Anuirean, so lets do the others. I think it's a worthwhile task to do. Specifically, at the very least, we should have a pronunciation guide for:

Brecht
Khinasi
Rjurik
Vos

The elves seemed to be covered by the Anuirean cardsheet - at least, as far as I'm concerned. But, if everyone else disagrees, then lets make one for elvish too.

The halfling language doesn't need one, because it's esoteric now; they speak one of the above languages. The same applies to Andu, Masetian, and the other ancient languages. That being said, however, if we want to be completist, we should probably take a stab at those ancient languages too.

The dwarven language should probably get its own treatment as well, since it pretty well demands it.

To do all of that, I believe that we need to start with a base real-world language to work from. That way, we can start applying it to the place names and see if they fit. Those that don't, we should see which languages they most closely resemble, and see if we can't mash something together in order to complete a "Cardsheet #1" for these other languages.

At least then, we can all agree on how to pronounce "Dzhl"...

[Fizz]

Now we're getting somewhere!
For example, how to explain all of the "non-Anuirean-like" names in Anuire, like 'Swordwraith', 'Bayview', 'Sunken Lands', when we also have 'Caer Callin' and 'Ghoere', for example? Sounds like they come from an English-speaking background to me... so, why? Perhaps the Anuireans have changed their language over time...?

For names like "Bayview", "Sunken Lands", etc, i think those could just be the result of translation to English. If an Anuirean were to refer to Bayview in the Anuirean language, it wouldn't sound the way it does in English. It would be whatever the translation for "Bay View" is in Anuirean. This is an example of a name that's the result of two regular nouns. Conversely, a name like "Elinie", is a proper name; there is no noun associated with that word otherwise, thus there is no English translation for us English-speaking players.

For other names, they could just be historically based. The city of Chicago's name comes from a Miami-Illinois word (meaning "stinky onion" or somesuch), and has just stuck around ever since. For your example, "Caer" means "wall" in Welsh, so maybe the name came from a rock formation that looked like a wall, and the arriving setllers took the word from the elves... who knows? As for Ghoere, that could be a pure Anuirean word or name; nothing about it defies the rules of Anuirean.

I want to have available for all BR players/DMs a "Cardsheet #1" for all the important languages within Cerilia. We have the Anuirean, so lets do the others. I think it's a worthwhile task to do. Specifically, at the very least, we should have a pronunciation guide for:

Brecht
Khinasi
Rjurik
Vos

Fortunately, the Cerilian Languages card from the original boxed set gives us some guidance.

Anuirean pronounciation is spelled out, so we won't need a real-world comparator for it.

The card states that Brecht is heavy germanic and follows germanic rules. So German seems like the logical choice for them. Dutch could work too (since Brectur is based on the Hanseatic League).

Basarji is stated as being Arabic both in sound and script, but with a strong Mediterranean flavour. Also, it notes that Basarji has changed little over the centuries. So clearly Arabic for them.

There is no description of how Rjuven sounds. However, it is stated that the Rjurik borrowed the Anuirean alphabet. A person literate in Anuirean can pronounce Rjuven written words, but cannot understand the syntax or meaning. That suggests it sounds similar to Anuirean.

Similarly, there is no description for Vos sounds. The Vos are based on dark ages Slavic countries, so any of the Slavic languages: Russian, Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, maybe a bit of Finnish, would work as a guideline.


Elves use Welsh, that's easy. Also of note, the core BR rulebook notes that Elven is the oldest of the languages and is remarkably unchanged from the original.

Now, we have nothing about Karamhul (dwarven). I'm not sure about this one. As i've stated before, my dwarves have always been Scottish. (But i've always thought Klingon would work too...) While dwarves and elves have shared the continent for many millenia, they have done so largely in isolation (one above ground, another below). So the languages could be very different. I agree, we probably have plenty of freedom with it, and maybe it should be something new.

Similarly, i'm not sure what to do about Goblin, though i've always thought goblinoid languages would be harsh-sounding, lots of hard letters and few soft, like their primary deity's name, Kartathok.

At least then, we can all agree on how to pronounce "Dzhl"...

I believe the Dzh combination is a slavic thing. To pronounce, start as though you're going to pronounce an english D, then quickly transition to a cross between an english soft G (as in the colour rouge) and soft Z. Then just add a quick L after it. That may not be perfect, but i think it's close.


-Fizz

[Osprey]

Elves use Welsh, that's easy. Also of note, the core BR rulebook notes that Elven is the oldest of the languages and is remarkably unchanged from the original.

I always thought the Sidhelien were as much or even more Gaelic language-based along with Welsh (I am not fully fluent in Gaelic, but reasonably familiar with it from language classes and Gaelic folklore). I see the Welsh folklore influence on some of the Shadow World elements and elven culture, but one could still as easily say they are Irish (so many similarities but with many differences too).

Let's look at the personal names:

The following are example names for elven characters.
==Male==
Áedán, Áed, Ailbhe, Ailill, Ailín, Aingael, Aislin, Aithne, Allanleigh (al-LAN-lay), Ardghal, Barreight, Biorach, Bláthnat, Brígh, Brónach, Bruibevann, Braedonnal, Byrnwbhie (BUR-noo-vee), Cadgwogawn, Caelcormac, Caellach, Cairbre, Calraath, Caoilfhionn, Caoimhín, Caolán, Cathair, Cathál, Cathán, Cearbhall, Ceincorinn, Cian, Ciardha, Colmán, Conall, Conan, Conchobhar, Conláed, Conleth, Connal, Conrí, Conannelaght (koh-NAN-ne-lach), Corvwyn, Comhghán, Cormac, Cuán, Cuchulainn, Daegandal, Deaglán, Dáire, Daithí, Dálaigh, Damháin, Dara, Darochinn, Delwynndwn (del-WIN-doon), Derwyndal, Deoradháin, Devlyn, Donnachaidh, Donnabhain, Dubhghall (doy-al), Dubhghlas, Eachann, Eagandigh, Eamonnal, Eidirsceoil, Erghwen, Fiellnn, Finn, Fionnbharr, Gannelganwn (gan-nel-gan-NOON), Garradh, Glyngrean, Lachlan, Lynn, Merwyndin, Morgan, Niall (NYE-ull), Rhannoch, Rhuobhe (ROVE), Rhaal, Rhys, Riordan, Seabharinn (she-VAR-in), Siele, Sliebheinn (slay-VEEN), Talerdigh, Tuall.
==Female==
Ailien, Alliena, Ardenna, Ashleight, Audreeana, Breeana, Brigyte, Briona, Bronwyn, Caitlannagh (kate-LAN-nay), Camrynnyd, Caileight, Dannagh, Deirdre, Duana, Erinn, Fiona, Finnegwyn, Glynna, Gwenyth, Gwenneigr (gwen-NEER), Iyaell, Leeana, Llewellyn, Mawrmaval (MOOR-ma-val), Maeghan, Maebhe, Mhiellwynn, Niobhe, Nysneirdre (nis-NEER-drey), Rhiannon, Rhondal, Rhuann, Shielynn, Sinead (she-NAYD), Siobhan (sheh-VAWN), Tuanala.

I am not nearly as proficient with Welsh, but it seems like a broad mix of both Gaelic and Welsh in here (roughly 50/50 or so?). I've also noted many of the elven realms have Welsh-looking names.

So I'm gonna go with "freely mixing Welsh and Gaelic language to make the Sidhelien language."

[Fizz]

I always thought the Sidhelien were as much or even more Gaelic language-based along with Welsh (I am not fully fluent in Gaelic, but reasonably familiar with it from language classes and Gaelic folklore). I see the Welsh folklore influence on some of the Shadow World elements and elven culture, but one could still as easily say they are Irish (so many similarities but with many differences too).

I am not nearly as proficient with Welsh, but it seems like a broad mix of both Gaelic and Welsh in here (roughly 50/50 or so?). I've also noted many of the elven realms have Welsh-looking names.

So I'm gonna go with "freely mixing Welsh and Gaelic language to make the Sidhelien language."

I don't know Gaelic at all. My thoughts about elvish being based on Welsh are based solely on the pronounciation guides used throughout the BR books. (For example, w is an "oo" sound, etc.) But if you're hearing / seeing Gaelic too, then i have no objection in using both as a guideline for Sidhelien. ( I presume Gaelic and Welsh are related anyways- probably via a common ancestor? )

-Fizz

[Sorontar]

Yes, there are a lot of Irish names in there - Cian (a God; son of a High King), Cuchulainn (part of the name of a legendary hero), Sinead (a singer), etc etc, though some are missing accents above vowels.

Yes, Welsh and (Irish) Gaelic are part of the Celtic language subtree. Scots Gaelic is derived from Gaelic. There is also Breton (from Brittany in France), Manx (the Isle of Man), Cornish (from Cornwell).



https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...amily_tree.svg

CC by-SA 4.0
Link

Sorontar

[masterdaorin]

Yes, there are a lot of Irish names in there - Cian (a God; son of a High King), Cuchulainn (part of the name of a legendary hero), Sinead (a singer), etc etc, though some are missing accents above vowels.

Sorontar

Yes, I noticed that some are missing accents above the vowels in Anuirean, as well, and probably a few of the Basarji and Brecht names.

It seems clear that all of these human languages are a compilation of various real-world languages. Makes it hard to figure this task out, in some ways, but I suppose that gives us more freedom to just make stuff up to fit what we have.

For example, whatever Andu was, it seems clear that the Andu people were heavily influenced by their elven neighbors when they first arrived. They adopted the elvish alphabet, have names like Cwlldon, Brynnor, Maesil, the use of the word Caer, etc. - all Celtic type words, name their children with elvish proper names (or corruptions thereof), and it seems clear to me that they have very heavy Celtic/Gaelic influences on their language tree since their migration from Aduria.

Considering that Rich Baker has Anuire as an amalgamation of various ideas that include Medieval England, and I'm more convinced now that I've started to look at the idea of language in the BR setting, that I'm sure that it was meant to follow similar patterns to the English language. Anglo-Saxon mixes with the native Celtic languages to get something new.

That is, I now believe that Andu (Anglo-Saxon) comes in, mixes with the native Elvish (Celtic/Gaelic) language and, over time, has become Anuirean. And, like the real-world example above, I'm willing to bet that Anuirean itself has evolved over time as well (into what we now think of as "Ye Olde English")*. The same applies to Brecht (High/Low). And Rjuven (heavily influenced by Anuirean and Brecht). And, despite the statement to the contrary on the Cardsheet, I'm willing to bet that Basarji has been influenced by their location and population mixes as well (the only explanation I can think of that applies to the obviously different language roots that we have with Khinasi place/proper names - particularly influenced by the Masetian and Vos languages, I'm willing to argue).

Masetian is obviously meant to refer to Greek (and probably Latin), and Vos is slavic languages (I just haven't figured out which ones predominate yet).

Andu as being (Anglo-)Saxon makes sense to me now, considered that that ancient language evolved along with the Rhandel (the ancient Brecht) and the Lurech (the ancient Rjuven) languages... all Germanic/Scandinavian roots next to each other in Aduria.

That's what I'm going with, anyway.

And my (former) concept of the Goblin language has been blow away by this... it's like I've stumbled upon a whole new level to BR!

* Yes, Fizz, I considered that the obviously non-Anuirean-looking names are just "translations" into English, but then, why didn't they do that for the other place names in Cerilia... or only did it for some names, and not others? Just saying... I think Anuirean is more like English now... it has just kept its old celtic roots, without the influence of Christianity or Latin to give us more much "English-sounding" proper names...