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  1. #21
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    An old, but maybe relevant, discussions
    - http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...ages-of-Anuire
    - http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...7035-Languages

    No cellwair but plenty of discussion about the halfling languages.

    I would take cellwair as the old language that they spoke at the time of the big move from the Shadow World, so it known by few, but the term may still be used to describe the community's language in general, which could be a dialect of Brecht, but also to represent the community. It and other "local" terms may be still around, derived from the original language.

    Sorontar
    Last edited by Sorontar; 06-03-2022 at 08:17 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I like most of these, but i have two thoughts.

    For Basarji, i envision them being more Moorish than Persian. So i think their language would more like Mozarabic.
    Yes, there does seem to be Moorish inclinations in some of the Khinasi references; although my vote would be to limit this Moorish cultural influence to Elinie and the Chimaeron.

    At any rate, I could go with that, but what language is "Mozarabic"? We need a base real-world language to start from... and then sprinkle in other languages to fill in the gaps in the letter pronunciations. Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    For Halflings, i don't know that they have their own language. Most halflings live among other cultures. The Burrows is an exception, and being so close to Brechtur, i figured it'd be a variant of Low Brecht.

    -Fizz
    I agree (about modern halflings). But halflings would have had spoken a language, whatever it was, despite the game/designer's apparent oversight. The question is, what is it?

    Presumably, they spoke Fey, the language that many creatures in the Faerie World (now hybridized into the Shadow World) speak. Of course, they could have had their own language too. So, we'll call it Halfling. But what does it sound like? We'd need a real-world language to work from.

    But I don't think we'd need to worry about that, because the only Cerilian halflings that would speak it are likely the Itave, and perhaps a few traditional isolated family groups or secret societies in areas of halfling control... which is currently only the Burrows. And, I suspect, they would be heavily influenced by their Brecht and Khinasi neighbours.

    Unfortunately, the halflings also have, in all of the canon material that I know of, the most English-sounding of all names/places... so, what to do about that?

    My first instinct would be to say that the halflings, when they migrated, all started within Anuire. But the source material doesn't seem to support that. I suspect that, en masse, they wandered about until groups of them settled in certain areas... Tuarhievel has a sizeable population, for example... but most ended up in the area now called the Burrows.

    My preference has always been that they were gypsies, in a way, until most got tired of wandering, and settled closest to the humans that they could communicate with most easily, which were the Brechts... What is the language that the gypsy folk speak? A dialect of Romanian?

    The dwarves also present a problem, btw...
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 06-03-2022 at 10:27 PM.

  3. #23
    It's amazing how language has such a huge influence on things, huh?

    Now it has got me thinking about migration patterns of these cultural groups, and now how some of the BR history is a little wonky...

    I've got some ideas about this, but it... deviates... from the canon material a little bit...

    I've just created a rough "cultural" map for Cerilia, and put my first inclinations regarding the different real-world equivalent cultures that might exist therein on it. It seems to work more-or-less well, with a few caveats...

    [Side Note]: Sorontar, is Gaelic derived from the Celtic language? I suspect the dwarves speak a form of Gaelic... (my "Scottish" reference above should have been "Gaelic")...
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 06-03-2022 at 10:19 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Yes, there does seem to be Moorish inclinations in some of the Khinasi references; although my vote would be to limit this Moorish cultural influence to Elinie and the Chimaeron.

    At any rate, I could go with that, but what language is "Mozarabic"? We need a base real-world language to start from... and then sprinkle in other languages to fill in the gaps in the letter pronunciations. Suggestions?
    I am no expert, but as i understand things, it was the language of Moorish Spain, ultimately replaced by Spanish and Arabic.

    I agree (about modern halflings). But halflings would have had spoken a language, whatever it was, despite the game/designer's apparent oversight. The question is, what is it?
    Before they came to Cerilia, yes, but i wonder since they essentially abandoned it for other cultures. Perhaps it only exists among halfling scholars now.

    Unfortunately, the halflings also have, in all of the canon material that I know of, the most English-sounding of all names/places... so, what to do about that?
    In that case, maybe we can model Halfling off of English. You had written english for Anuire, but based on typical Anuirean names and sounds, english might not be the best match. So we free it up for the halflings. Since we do have some language rules for Anuirean, we may not even need an analog for it.

    The dwarves also present a problem, btw...
    I think a form of Gaelic works for the dwarves. The elves and dwarves have occupied Cerilia longer than anyone, so they may have had infleunced one another over millenia. Plus, i have problems roleplaying a dwarf with anything but a scottish accent.

    -Fizz

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    In that case, maybe we can model Halfling off of English. You had written english for Anuire, but based on typical Anuirean names and sounds, english might not be the best match. So we free it up for the halflings. Since we do have some language rules for Anuirean, we may not even need an analog for it.
    Following up on this, Rich Baker once described Anuirean as a made-up language of his own, or at least an attempt to have consistent-sounding names. And he always thought of it as Euro-Mediterranean in sound. He considered Anuire an amalgam of medieval England, the Roman empire, and Gondor.

    So i think we need not be bound with english as a guideline for Anuirean. We can give english to the Halflings.


    -Fizz

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I am no expert, but as i understand things, it was the language of Moorish Spain, ultimately replaced by Spanish and Arabic.
    I agree. However, I'm not sure using Spanish as a base language would be the best fit for the Basarji language, since it's very Romanesque, for lack of a better word. Hence, why I favored Farsi. Not sure about Arabic, either, though I'd probably lean more towards that than Spanish or Farsi. A lot of the words I was Google Translating were coming up as closest to Turkish or some other language, however... Arabic really hasn't come up yet...

    Hmmm... maybe we'll have to make a list of the place names and see which language comes up the most, and go with that...

    It's pretty clear that the game designers just picked and made up words that sounded about right, and plopped them in without thinking about how that messes with all sorts of things, logically speaking, like people migrations and language patterns... heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Before they came to Cerilia, yes, but i wonder since they essentially abandoned it for other cultures. Perhaps it only exists among halfling scholars now.
    Oh, that does seem to be the case. In fact, I would make the argument, based on the lack of a language in the canon material, as that is playing to the idea that the halflings forsook their native language entirely. Shunned it, in a way, due to them wanting nothing to do with whatever caused them to leave the Fey World in the first place.

    My thoughts on this is that the Shadow Lord frightened them so much, that they abandoned their old way of life in order to live life on This Side without any of the dangers that their old way of doing things presented.

    Naturally, they didn't count on Deismaar ruining things... now, the Shadow is creeping back over into This Side, threatening things again. Too scary to think about, for those halflings that are more aware of the dangers that the Other Side now presents...

    In short, the halflings are a key race in this campaign setting - more than most people have given them credit for, I'll wager...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    In that case, maybe we can model Halfling off of English. You had written english for Anuire, but based on typical Anuirean names and sounds, english might not be the best match. So we free it up for the halflings. Since we do have some language rules for Anuirean, we may not even need an analog for it.
    I'd say halflings don't need their own language now. But, to have complete language coverage for the game, we probably should come up with Old Halfling, whatever that is. As I think I mentioned above, though, this would mostly be an esoteric language, like Masetian and Andu; 99.9% of halflings speak the language of the Big Folk they live with (the majority of which would be Low Brecht, I should think, as that's where the largest concentration of halflings in Cerilia live).

    In the same vein, I'm willing to argue that Vos should have an ancient version too... what Vorynn's people spoke before they were converted by Azrai into the "harsh" language that it is today... But we don't need to cover that here... just the "modern" version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I think a form of Gaelic works for the dwarves. The elves and dwarves have occupied Cerilia longer than anyone, so they may have had infleunced one another over millenia. Plus, i have problems roleplaying a dwarf with anything but a scottish accent.
    Lol, me too.

    And that ties in with what I was saying above. I actually think now, looking at the history of Cerilia, that when the dwarves first emerged from the depths of the earth, they were dominated by the elves, and, much like the Andu, began to incorporate Elvish into their language to the same extent. Then they realized very quickly that the elven version of co-existing meant "you are not like us, and are less than us"... and so they retreated back into the mountains and their language changed into what it is today.

    (Which, btw, makes a strong argument for Goblin and Orog also being heavily influenced by Elvish, considering that they were the longest of any of these "lesser" races being within the company of the elves). Makes you go hmmm... doesn't it? Now I'm beginning to think that goblins and orogs speak a form of "pidgin elvish"...! (meaning, pidgin Welsh).

    And, that also returns us back to the halflings. I think they have so much "English" in their current language because they, like the Andu with the elves, seem to have adopted Andu as their mother tongue when they first migrated to Cerilia. Hence, Anglo-Saxon morphing into English. They are what the Andu would have been without the elven influence. Lol. I'm willing to bet that the "Anuirean" halfling clans, much like their Big Folk brethren, have historically looked down on "those other" halfling clans (i.e. the Burrows) as going too "modern" with their Low Brecht (as opposed to Andu) language and mannerisms...

    I think that would also dove-tail nicely with the idea that Anuirean has changed from Welsh to English - most Anuirean nobles have given up the "old (i.e. Welsh)" way of speaking for the "new (the way the commoners have spoken Anuirean (i.e. English)" way of speaking. A renaissance of language, if you will... and a nod to real-life history...

    Like I said, thinking about language has really got me thinking about other aspects within the game.

    I love Birthright.
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 06-07-2022 at 01:59 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Following up on this, Rich Baker once described Anuirean as a made-up language of his own, or at least an attempt to have consistent-sounding names. And he always thought of it as Euro-Mediterranean in sound. He considered Anuire an amalgam of medieval England, the Roman empire, and Gondor.

    So i think we need not be bound with english as a guideline for Anuirean. We can give english to the Halflings.


    -Fizz
    It is a made up language, for the most part, based on what I know about its real-world inspiration languages.

    I think it's fair to say, however, that English is the same as Anuirean. I mean, just to keep things simple. If, for no other reason, than to distinguish it from Elvish (the elven language should be "pure" Welsh, as it were).
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 06-07-2022 at 01:44 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    It is a made up language, for the most part, based on what I know about its real-world inspiration languages.

    I think it's fair to say, however, that English is the same as Anuirean. I mean, just to keep things simple. If, for no other reason, than to distinguish it from Elvish (the elven language should be "pure" Welsh, as it were).
    Well, the initial premise of the thread was to discuss real-world languates as a guide for pronounciation. What we know of Anuirean pronounciaton rules are not the same and english. So that's why i'm not sure that we'd want to use english as the basis.

    There is no confusing welsh and english in sound. Elvish seems to follow several (if not all) of the rules of welsh prononciation, so i don't think we'll ever confuse the two. Heh.

    -Fizz

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Well, the initial premise of the thread was to discuss real-world languates as a guide for pronounciation. What we know of Anuirean pronounciaton rules are not the same and english. So that's why i'm not sure that we'd want to use english as the basis.

    There is no confusing welsh and english in sound. Elvish seems to follow several (if not all) of the rules of welsh prononciation, so i don't think we'll ever confuse the two. Heh.

    -Fizz
    Correct, I agree that we should use the Welsh translations rules for Anuirean. That's already established.

    That being said, there a lot of non-Welsh names in Anuire. My proposed fix for that is that Welsh/Anuirean is "old" Anuirean. The more "modern" version of Anuirean is turning into English; Elvish is still pure Welsh. I think it would thus help to establish the difference between the Anuirean and Elvish languages.

    That's neither here nor there, though - just a side thought. We'll keep Anuirean as Welsh for the purposes of this thread/site.

  10. #30
    Anyone want to add/change/respond with more thoughts...? Otherwise, I'll hit the ground running with what has been suggested here...
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 06-09-2022 at 09:59 PM.

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