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  1. #11
    I agree Witness. Not sure how the IPA alphabet system works, though. Plus, as I stated above, I'm not sure the canon language "rules" necessarily follow their own rules... lol.

    I would like to keep it as close to the canon sources as possible, however.

    I've already done some work regarding this, but I could stop and start over if a group effort is involved. Maybe we could divide things into the five cultural groups? Plus, I was only thinking of the place names, to start with... and maybe the most common words, like ajazada (for example, although that one seems like it doesn't need a pronunciation guide). We probably should be thorough with the canon material, on the other hand, as well.

    What's your native language? I really only need help with mostly the Brecht, Khinasi, and Vos place names, and maybe a few Rjurik words. I'm pretty confident with my Anuirean place names...

    I do think that there should be some sort of consensus on "how the native speakers say it"... while still completely agreeing with Sorontar and Witness that, naturally, there would be different variations "in-world" by the various cultures of Cerilia.

    That way, for example, when I say tighmaevril, everyone playing the game knows what I'm talking about...

    I'm mostly just curious now about how everyone else has been pronouncing these words, and comparing it to how our group has been all these years... lol.
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 05-20-2022 at 10:24 PM.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Witness3 View Post
    I think that a pronunciation guide, even as simple as an entry inside every realm page, would be a wonderful thing. And I would love to help if possible.
    You still interested?

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    You still interested?
    Sure!

    IPA, like Esperanto, is a phonetic alphabet. This means 1 symbol = 1 sound, no exception, and a symbol's sound does not change according to nearby symbols. In wikipedia there is usually the IPA with a tooltip with example on each symbol. I don't know if it is possibile to do here, I will dig into it. Here is a good start.

    I'm italian, unfortunately my language and culture was excluded from Cerilia (<rant>AS NOTHING INTERESTING HAPPENED IN ITALY BETWEEN MIDDLE AGES AND RENAISSANCE, YOU KNOW</rant>, sorry, off topic! :P).

    I'm mostly just curious now about how everyone else has been pronouncing these words, and comparing it to how our group has been all these years... lol.
    My group speaks anuirean as it was latin/english mix. So, diphtongs such as ae, ei, ui, ou, etc. are turned into 1 vowel. 'C' are 'K' , like in archaic roman (not the exact name), or 's' so Cuiraécen becomes something like 'KIRKàKEN' or 'Kuiràkn' wich sounds simila to 'Kraken', with the last consonant spelled out. Nesirie Is pronounced as it was italian, with each vowel defined.

    For brecht we go to plain dutch-like sounds, rjurik as norse, khinasi as arabic with italian sounds, with the exception of 'j' sounding like spanish j in 'jefe'. Vos, we pronounce it as russian-like, so Rhlzev becomes /rʣev/ . It's probably wrong, and a real east european should look into it probably.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Witness3 View Post
    Sure!
    ...
    My group speaks anuirean as it was latin/english mix. So, diphtongs such as ae, ei, ui, ou, etc. are turned into 1 vowel. 'C' are 'K' , like in archaic roman (not the exact name), or 's' so Cuiraécen becomes something like 'KIRKàKEN' or 'Kuiràkn' wich sounds simila to 'Kraken', with the last consonant spelled out. Nesirie Is pronounced as it was italian, with each vowel defined.

    For brecht we go to plain dutch-like sounds, rjurik as norse, khinasi as arabic with italian sounds, with the exception of 'j' sounding like spanish j in 'jefe'. Vos, we pronounce it as russian-like, so Rhlzev becomes /rʣev/ . It's probably wrong, and a real east european should look into it probably.
    Cool, it's interesting to see how others play. I've always treated most of the Southern Coast of Anuire (along with Avanil) with an Italian bent to the typical Anuirean baseline culture. Likewise, other regions of Cerilia have similar European/African/Asian cultures attached to them in my game.

    That would be great if we could get others who are native speakers involved, but that's probably not going to happen, unfortunately.

    The IPA looks like it might be too complicated to utilize with a standard keyboard. How do I type the D3 symbol correctly (for instance)? And, looking at that, it doesn't look like a sound... not sure it would be a popular choice for some people to then use the document...

    If we are to do this, we should probably use a simple agreed upon table, like the cardsheet for the Anuirean language in the boxed set, and attach that to the pronunciation document that we will post here. Also, since this is the official BR website, we should stick with the already established canon word pronunciations - which would necessitate other words following the same pronunciation guidelines, generally speaking (for Anuirean words, that is).

    And I'm not even sure where to start on some words... Dzhl, for instance. LoL.

    Still want to try something like that...?

    It'd be great if we had a linguist help us a little...
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 05-27-2022 at 10:09 PM.

  5. #15
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    > It'd be great if we had a linguist help us a little...

    LOL, I presume you are suggesting me. While I have the training and profession, phonetics unfortunately is not really my area.

    I am happy to advise and help guide the community's efforts but as we have discussed on Discord, there will be a certain level of false generality in any phonetic list we create, due to regional variance within the "native speakers", but having something is better than nothing.

    For instance, we could decide that the Vos pronounce Vosgaard like vus+guard or voos+gaad (depending on whether you are north or south) but the Anuireans pronounce it like vos+guide, but the Brecht call it voz+gid. The Khinasi may call it fas+grunt and the Rjurik may call it volk+gud. (Who knows what the different elven or dwarven or orog communities call it). Now I have made these all up on the spur of the moment and how they are written may not clearly link to how they are pronounced (https://www.hrtwarming.com/wp-conten...15/06/2132.jpg anyone).

    What I am saying is that if you want to try and design a pronunciation guide, you need to set your limits - do you really care about being consistent in how elements of names are pronounced? Do you care about how different regions would pronounce the same thing? Do you care how different regions would write the same thing?

    You can start with linking a language to a known Terran language, like Brecht to German or Dutch or Belgian Flemish or Alsatian. If so, you then need to work out how you do that linkage, and for that we need a "native speaker" of the Terran language who can tell us how they would pronounce the word.

    Sorontar
    Sorontar
    Information Communication ILLUMINATION!!

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    > It'd be great if we had a linguist help us a little...

    LOL, I presume you are suggesting me. While I have the training and profession, phonetics unfortunately is not really my area.

    Sorontar
    Yes, I was.

    Hmmm... I wasn't thinking of an *in-game* pronunciation guide; perhaps I wasn't clear. I was more aiming for a "Cardsheet #1" for ALL of Cerilia's cultures, rather than just Anuirean pronunciations... so that when I say to a BR player one place name, for example, everyone who plays the game knows what I'm talking about.

    It's easy when it's written - we all have the maps, and can read the place name. Speaking it, however, is another matter... lol. I'm not so much interested in how a Baruk-Azhik dwarf talks as compared to a Daikhur Zhigun dwarf talks - that should be left to each individual gaming group to personalize.

    I was aiming for a guide that the BR community can have so that we know how to pronounce certain made-up words in the canon material... that's what I was thinking.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    The IPA looks like it might be too complicated to utilize with a standard keyboard. How do I type the D3 symbol correctly (for instance)? And, looking at that, it doesn't look like a sound... not sure it would be a popular choice for some people to then use the document...
    Actually, I just copy & paste from the wiki, as they are unicode fonts. But that's ok, we have to start somewhere, even if it is with plain english sounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    If we are to do this, we should probably use a simple agreed upon table, like the cardsheet for the Anuirean language in the boxed set, and attach that to the pronunciation document that we will post here. Also, since this is the official BR website, we should stick with the already established canon word pronunciations - which would necessitate other words following the same pronunciation guidelines, generally speaking (for Anuirean words, that is).
    Well, i was going to suggest to copy/paste the language cheatsheet, but that's already been done. So we may start with a pronunciation list for each Anuirean realm/province, and some of the most important or harder names, such as Berouine or '''Elaenadaere Dhoelachnal'''. I have a SWF file with Baker pronouncing each realm, I think, but I cannot manage to open it anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar
    What I am saying is that if you want to try and design a pronunciation guide, you need to set your limits - do you really care about being consistent in how elements of names are pronounced? Do you care about how different regions would pronounce the same thing? Do you care how different regions would write the same thing?
    No, we should not. That level of deep would be too much. Altough one can give small references, just as they do on major cerilian languages, but nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar
    You can start with linking a language to a known Terran language, like Brecht to German or Dutch or Belgian Flemish or Alsatian. If so, you then need to work out how you do that linkage, and for that we need a "native speaker" of the Terran language who can tell us how they would pronounce the word.
    Totally agree with you on this. And this kinda stops any dream on expanding BR language, as I don't see any other person interested in this and my native language is basically useless.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Witness3 View Post
    Actually, I just copy & paste from the wiki, as they are unicode fonts. But that's ok, we have to start somewhere, even if it is with plain english sounds.
    Yes, that I completely agree with. And we can copy the base language pronunciation guides from real world languages for the fantasy base languages that we settle on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witness3 View Post
    Well, i was going to suggest to copy/paste the language cheatsheet, but that's already been done. So we may start with a pronunciation list for each Anuirean realm/province, and some of the most important or harder names, such as Berouine or '''Elaenadaere Dhoelachnal'''. I have a SWF file with Baker pronouncing each realm, I think, but I cannot manage to open it anymore.
    I can still open them, but they are only for most of the Anuirean realms, not any others. Hence, my problem. And the copy/paste the language cheatsheet is what I'm aiming for - we have the Anuirean, now lets do the other languages...

    So, if we're going to do this properly, we should start by agreeing on the base language for the cultures of Cerilia.

    What I find really interesting, for example - Elvish seems to be based on Welsh, like Anuirean does. Very interesting indeed, to me. This seems to say, to me, that the Anuireans and the Elves were as thick as thieves at the very beginning of humanity's relationship with the elves, so much so that the Anuireans adopted the elven alphabet and much of their language... (not so for the other human cultures...)

    Alas, for some silly reason, the game designers only made that relationship last for roughly two generations. Not much time to justify a complete language change for the Anuireans... but, meh, c'est la vie. It is what it is...

    So, here goes - my initial take on the language roots regarding the cultures of Cerilia... feel free to discuss, ponder, and add your own input...

    Anuirean = English (but also Celtic/Welsh English - we have this documented)
    Andu = Anglo-Saxon
    Basarji (Khinasi) = Farsi* evolved into...?
    Lurech (Brecht) = German (Lurech) evolved into Dutch (Brecht)?
    Masetian = Greek ("old") evolved into Latin ("modern")?
    Rhandel (Rjurik) = Norwegian/Swedish?* (Rhandel) evolved into...?
    Vos = Russian* evolved into...?
    Elves = Celtic/Welsh
    Dwarves = Scottish* (possible), probably evolving from Welsh (Elvish)
    Halflings = Esperanto*, evolved into various Cerilian dialects.

    These are just base language starting points, something to play with... I'm totally open for differences of opinion... For example, I've always liked the idea that the halflings are a gypsy folk, and so that sort of language might mix very well with their Brecht area roots... that might just present a problem, somewhat, of course, because most of the Halfling proper names and place names are the most English-sounding of all the words in BR... lol. How do we reconcile that... hmmm... any linguists here, your thoughts?

    The * languages are clearly evolved from various regional dialects, judging from some of the place names. Thus, I think it's safe for us to use various different real-world languages to mish-mash into the final language product. Thus, for example, Basarji can be a mixture of Farsi, Arabic, Turkish, Egyptian, etc., depending on the area in Cerilia it is.

    Side Note: Sorontar, why did you settle on the name "Cellwair" for the halflings and their language? Where did you get that? Just curious...
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 06-02-2022 at 10:40 PM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Side Note: Sorontar, why did you settle on the name "Cellwair" for the halflings and their language? Where did you get that? Just curious...
    I had asked about that a while back. See here:
    http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...light=cellwair

    It seems no one knows, but everyone is ok with it. Heh.

    -Fizz

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Anuirean = English (but also Celtic/Welsh English - we have this documented)
    Andu = Anglo-Saxon
    Basarji (Khinasi) = Farsi* evolved into...?
    Lurech (Brecht) = German (Lurech) evolved into Dutch (Brecht)?
    Masetian = Greek ("old") evolved into Latin ("modern")?
    Rhandel (Rjurik) = Norwegian/Swedish?* (Rhandel) evolved into...?
    Vos = Russian* evolved into...?
    Elves = Celtic/Welsh
    Dwarves = Scottish* (possible), probably evolving from Welsh (Elvish)
    Halflings = Esperanto*, evolved into various Cerilian dialects.
    I like most of these, but i have two thoughts.

    For Basarji, i envision them being more Moorish than Persian. So i think their language would more like Mozarabic.

    For Halflings, i don't know that they have their own language. Most halflings live among other cultures. The Burrows is an exception, and being so close to Brechtur, i figured it'd be a variant of Low Brecht.

    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 06-03-2022 at 01:12 AM.

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