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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Well, they did. In Rjurik, you have the realms of Giantdowns and Realm of the White Witch. In Brechtur you have the cities of Blackgate, Fellport, the province of Cornelius' Landing. In Khinasi you have have the province of Green Mountains (in Suiriene), Fingers of Ayan (in Khourane). And in Vosgaard you have provinces of Akar Bluffs, and the realm of Battle Fens and The Icemarch.

    That list is by no means exhaustive- i have no doubt i've missed others. But english does get used elsewhere. And even for the elves and dwarves (Thorn Throne, Fallen Rock, etc). And Anuire may have more specifics than other regions. But Anuire is by no means unique.
    Good point.

    We should also note that most of these areas were heavily influenced by Anuire, so... those names have probably become traditional.

    Perhaps this gives us a clue as to exactly when Anuirean transitioned from "old" to "modern" version... or perhaps, as you argue, it was always like that.

    Perhaps, for example, the elves never had a word in their language for their seat of power... perhaps only Anuireans are concerned with such things... Perhaps the Vos don't give a Brecht's butt about what lies above Rovninodensk... so it's left to Anuirean cartographers to label such things... or maybe its the Royal Cartographer's Society in the Imperial City of Anuire that gave us "that map"... questions, questions...

    Which shall we go with...?
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 07-13-2022 at 04:25 PM.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Your envisionment of the dwarves is vastly different from mine. Here's mine: the dwarves are creatures of stone, very elemental in nature. So i think they may have existed well before the elves ever did. It is stated they emerged from the "depths of the earth". To me that implies they were down there a long time. They didn't "discover" the surface until much later.

    ...

    The dwarves must have had more advanced mining techniques already in order to have worked their way from the "depths of the earth" to the surface. (How else to dig through hard rock?) That requires an advanced civilization. So they weren't primitive. In some ways they may have been more advanced than the elves.

    Now elves, it is stated often, are arrogant with a superiority complex, so they may have perceived dwarves as brutes (they do everyone). But dwarves are proud and untrusting, so i don't see the dwarves as accepting any form of elven supreriority.

    Further, mining is not consistent with elven proclivity of living in harmony with nature. I don't see the elves improving mining techniques because you need to have an established industry to learn those sorts of things, and such an industry would be anathema to the elves. (A civilization that lives in the trees will never invent the microchip. )

    Your reasons for the animosity of the species are reasonable, but i think the dwarves came out of the mountains quite civilized already.

    ...

    The orogs and goblins have gods. The elves never have. So if the goblins were so primitive when the elves taught them civilization, how did the goblins have and retain their own religiosity? For that reason, the goblins must already have had their own civiliization and language before the influence of the elves.

    ...

    Of course, what you do in your own game is your business. But that's how i see the prehistory.
    I held to those very same conclusions - until recently - when this thread's conundrum popped into my head. Then it got me thinking about my long-held preconceived notions about BR...

    All I'll add to this, so as not to derail the thread:

    1) All civilizations start from somewhere.

    2) I take it for granted that, like Earth, civilizations advance along reasonably expected paths. Of course, this being a fantasy world... but, anyway. No civilization started already advanced. They had to be primitive at some point. This seems to be one of the core ideas of BR... different technological levels...

    3) Elves certainly practice mining, I would assume. They need metal for objects. Naturally, being a fantasy world, this might be done in other ways (magic?). On the other hand, I've always felt that elves should be the more primitive culture, but anyway, that's not what we have in BR...

    4) Civilizations that interact usually do so that benefits both in some ways (the degree of which is up for debate, of course).

    5) It is very hard to erase an entire culture if they aren't wiped out completely. I would say that the goblins/orogs kept elements of their own primitive culture throughout their domination by the elves. These elements then came to the fore when they no longer were controlled by the elves. These elements would, naturally, undergo changes based on the current needs of the individual societies. So, for example, this is why the religion issue never became the bugbear (pardon the pun) that it became for the elves when the humans arrived. The elves probably suppressed the worship of goblin/orog gods?
    Last edited by masterdaorin; 07-13-2022 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    Good point.
    We should also note that most of these areas were heavily influenced by Anuire, so... those names have probably become traditional.
    Hmmm... not sure what you mean. Most of the names i mentioned are no where near Anuire. In particular, Battle Fens and Icemarch are about as far away as you can get from Anuire.

    Perhaps, for example, the elves never had a word in their language for their seat of power... perhaps only Anuireans are concerned with such things... Perhaps the Vos don't give a Brecht's butt about what lies above Rovninodensk... so it's left to Anuirean cartographers to label such things... or maybe its the Royal Cartographer's Society in the Imperial City of Anuire that gave us "that map"... questions, questions...

    Which shall we go with...?
    Well, this is why i think you're overthinking it. I don't think it's something we need to answer. Any of those reasons might apply to any of those cases. I think those details are best left to the DM and their individual games; to be sorted out as (if) needed.

    -Fizz

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterdaorin View Post
    1) All civilizations start from somewhere.

    2) I take it for granted that, like Earth, civilizations advance along reasonably expected paths. Of course, this being a fantasy world... but, anyway. No civilization started already advanced. They had to be primitive at some point. This seems to be one of the core ideas of BR... different technological levels...
    Yes, but we don't know the timelines of such. The Chronicle from Dragon #241 says elves emerged from the elements at a time unknown. They may have been "primitive" savages for millions for all we know. More likely it's somehow connected to the schism with the Shadow World (if i remember Blood Spawn correctly).

    Also remember that elves are not normal. They are more related to the fey than they are to humanoids. So they may not follow the normal rules of development.

    Now, when it says elves taught the goblins and kobolds civilization, one has to determine what that means. I think the most basic level of civilization occurs when living no longer depends on finding food every day. This lets the members pursue things beyond mere survival, because they don't have to worry about their next meal. So the elves may have simply taught the goblins and kobolds farming and husbandry. From that, the goblins could have created their own culture. Perhaps the elves and goblins were akin to the ancient Egyptians and Hebrews.

    3) Elves certainly practice mining, I would assume. They need metal for objects. Naturally, being a fantasy world, this might be done in other ways (magic?). On the other hand, I've always felt that elves should be the more primitive culture, but anyway, that's not what we have in BR...
    I don't think elves would practice mining. Maybe they might do some surface excavation of an exposed cliff for raw ore and the like, but certainly not to the level of the dwarves. The dwarves come from the ground, and built entire cities and networks underground: think of the Mines of Moria from Fellowship of the Ring- there is no indication the elves are ever capable of that level of mining ability. Heck, maybe the elves didn't even know about mining (or metal) until they learned it from the dwarves.

    5) It is very hard to erase an entire culture if they aren't wiped out completely. I would say that the goblins/orogs kept elements of their own primitive culture throughout their domination by the elves.
    I know of no reference that says the elves had historical contact with the orogs. Or have you been meaning kobolds in the last few posts?

    Having an established religion requires a language. Certainly the goblins didn't learn about Kartathok from the elves. So the goblins must have had their own language first in order to convey their thoughts about Kartathok in the first place. Thus i argue the goblins had their own lanuage before they ever encounted elves. And hence goblin and elven could be entirely different languages with no relation to one another.


    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 07-16-2022 at 12:57 AM.

  5. #55

    How to pronounce this one name

    Love the thread. My first exposure to Birthright was through the novels Greatheart and Iron Throne. Imagine my shock upon being gifted the box set and learning the sidhelien was not pronounced “Sid-hee-lee-an.” I had the box when I was an awkward teenager, but never the players handbook, or really anyone to play with, but I’m playing D&D now, and falling back in love with Abreynis all over again.

    One major question- because I’ll never get all the names right, but I really would like to get this one right since he’s the framing device for the whole box set, and the Imperial Chamberlain after all.

    How do you pronounce Caliedhe Dosiere?

    Thanks!

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by UVAtom View Post
    One major question- because I’ll never get all the names right, but I really would like to get this one right since he’s the framing device for the whole box set, and the Imperial Chamberlain after all.

    How do you pronounce Caliedhe Dosiere?
    Welcome to the boards!

    I think the correct pronounciation would be:
    kal-eeth dah-seer

    -Fizz
    Last edited by Fizz; 08-04-2022 at 01:43 AM.

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