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  1. #1
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Stjordvik vassals

    I was checking various domain tables in the wiki and I noticed that Stjordvik has Djursund Njalgrimsson as the Jarl of Udvika (abbreviation Dj, which for now conflicts with the abbreviation of the Jarl of Havliik in Svinik). However, the bio page for Djursund and his daughter Hrafnhild Djursunsdotter (which possibly should be Djursundsdotter) indicates that due to his frailty, she is acting as Jarlless. This is supported by the text on the wiki for Stjordvik. However, I cannot see any mention of her in canon publications. In fact, the Stjordvik domain table in The Rjurik Highlands has Djursund as regent. Which is right? Who is in charge of the province?

    Once I know, I can decide how best to resolve the abbreviation conflict.

    Sorontar
    Last edited by Sorontar; 08-08-2021 at 05:01 AM.
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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    I have spotted another irregularity in The Rjurik Highlands. In the entry fro Stordvik, it says the White Witch has 1 Guild holding in Saerskaap. However, in the same book the entry for the White Witch says she has 2 Guild holdings in Saerskaap. It is a 4/2 province and the only other guild is Storm Holtson (Stjordvik Traders) with 1 holding. The text says "The White Witch continues to maintain a small but significant interest in the area".

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    I have spotted another irregularity in The Rjurik Highlands. In the entry fro Stordvik, it says the White Witch has 1 Guild holding in Saerskaap. However, in the same book the entry for the White Witch says she has 2 Guild holdings in Saerskaap. It is a 4/2 province and the only other guild is Storm Holtson (Stjordvik Traders) with 1 holding. The text says "The White Witch continues to maintain a small but significant interest in the area".

    Sorontar
    On this one, the games I have done have always run this as being a level 1 Guild Holding, following the Realm description. As far as I remember, our own consensus was that if there was a conflict to follow the Realm description. It is more detailed, and the sum up lists are more prone to error.

    In this case, it also aligns with the description. If it was a level 2, it would not be small but significant in my opinion. It would then be the largest guild.

  4. #4
    Djursund is reported giving up the jarldom to his daughter hrafnhild in the player's secret of stjordivk aourcebook. Her name is indicated in the sourcebook. This is more like an added detail rather than a .mistake, I think it should be canon - at least that is what I did when I wrote stjordivk's doom.
    The witch holdings are a different problem. They are reported as being *secret*, as no one knows their presence. But there is no secret holding game.mechanic, hiwever we have brcs spy networks now, which should be more appropriate, although they do not generate profit.

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    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witness3 View Post
    Djursund is reported giving up the jarldom to his daughter hrafnhild in the player's secret of stjordivk sourcebook. Her name is indicated in the sourcebook. This is more like an added detail rather than a .mistake, I think it should be canon - at least that is what I did when I wrote stjordvik's doom.
    The witch holdings are a different problem. They are reported as being *secret*, as no one knows their presence. But there is no secret holding game.mechanic, however we have brcs spy networks now, which should be more appropriate, although they do not generate profit.
    As a regent I would far rather have secret guild holdings with levels than a spy network. The former generate income and could even anchor a trade route (can secret guilds create a secret smuggling trade route? Why not, with Espionage to cover it up!).

    I know we have been back and forth over the secret holdings issue before with the BRCS project, but I feel like this is one of quite a few references to secret holdings in the source material. I feel that we should just note with an asterisk after any holding that is said to be secret in the source material, then denote the asterisk's meaning after the regent abbreviation list at the end of a holding table (if you all follow what I mean).
    Then DMs/groups are free to decide for themselves how to handle the hidden holding mechanics.

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    As a regent I would far rather have secret guild holdings with levels than a spy network. The former generate income and could even anchor a trade route (can secret guilds create a secret smuggling trade route? Why not, with Espionage to cover it up!).

    I know we have been back and forth over the secret holdings issue before with the BRCS project, but I feel like this is one of quite a few references to secret holdings in the source material. I feel that we should just note with an asterisk after any holding that is said to be secret in the source material, then denote the asterisk's meaning after the regent abbreviation list at the end of a holding table (if you all follow what I mean).
    Then DMs/groups are free to decide for themselves how to handle the hidden holding mechanics.
    I suspect that the easiest way is to say not commonly known as being part of a 'formal' holding (i.e. perhaps seen as small guilds without central organisation at 'holding' level) and susceptible to discovery of the central organisation with espionage / adventure / luck - but to each DM their own, as you note we don't have to give hard answer, the entire holding system is deliberately somewhat vague on the details of what holdings represent.

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Indeed, one of the considerations I have had when writing up the Burrows is that there are two main guilds - one known as an producer/exporter and the other as an importer. The Burrows doesn't have major cities and is made up of mainly localised villages, hamlets and small farms. The issue is then what a guild holding represents.

    I wrote "Much of the Burrows is a semi-rural environment. There are few grand buildings in the towns and little heavy industry. What manufacturing does exist tends to be in allied workshops, licensed to supply the main guilds, rather than a centralised factory. Of course, there are plenty of small and medium businesses who are independent, but they have a more limited clientale."

    The guilds will have in place a system and structure that will include warehouses, delivery systems and agents so clients can order and review stock. Not all of a holding is about what it physically has though. A lot of it will be about what it knows and how it utilises that knowledge. Some systems are more mature than others.

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    Last edited by Sorontar; 08-17-2021 at 03:23 AM.
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  8. #8
    I think that Holdings, as a concept, are vague enough to be just about anything. The problem is with action rules, such as holding limit per province level, that makes this secret easy to find out without any espionage. I can actually imagine the conversation:

    • Player: I want to bring my Lv 2 Guild up to Lv 3!
    • DM: Erhm... you can't.
    • Player: Why? I'm the only guild inside this province, and the province is Lv. 3, So there is at least one slot open... unless..
    • DM: Unless...

  9. #9
    Member Michael Romes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witness3 View Post
    I think that Holdings, as a concept, are vague enough to be just about anything. The problem is with action rules, such as holding limit per province level, that makes this secret easy to find out without any espionage. I can actually imagine the conversation:

    • Player: I want to bring my Lv 2 Guild up to Lv 3!
    • DM: Erhm... you can't.
    • Player: Why? I'm the only guild inside this province, and the province is Lv. 3, So there is at least one slot open... unless..
    • DM: Unless...
    The DM could simply have him try to raise his guild and fail automatically (as the hidden holding takes up the space) or
    the DM could in secret treat the rule action to rule up the players holding as a contest action vs. the hidden holding.
    and there always can be hindrances like old laws, defenders of nature, spoilage rules like for Talinie or opposition of temple, law or source holdings against the attempt to rule up the holding without giving away who exactly does what exactly to prevent the ruling to work.

    e.g. the gnarly old and revered Druid of Erik to the great surprise of the guilds leaders one morning comes personally, accompanied only by two acolytes to the guild main hall and calls him out to the open to scold him for putting money above nature and to attempt or even think about expanding business instead of honouring Eriks ways...
    Last edited by Michael Romes; 08-17-2021 at 03:53 PM.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Romes View Post
    The DM could simply have him try to raise his guild and fail automatically (as the hidden holding takes up the space) or
    the DM could in secret treat the rule action to rule up the players holding as a contest action vs. the hidden holding.
    I like your 1st option a lot better. Presumably hidden holdings are far harder to create, rule up, and keep operating at higher than level 0 without getting noticed (+20 DC to Create and Rule secret holdings sounds about right). So it feels reasonable that one of the only ways to even know to run an Espionage mission to look for them is because your rule holding action failed without apparent cause.

    So a regent would fail the Rule action, then need a successful Espionage domain action in the correct province to actually uncover the secret holding, then either Contest the holding or use troops to occupy and raze the holding (which is expensive and unsettling to the populace).

    Suggestion: Maybe a hidden holding of level 1 or higher needs an Espionage action once per season to set the DC of any espionage checks to find them that season.
    Any regent could then use a Spy Network there to make it a free or court action to maintain. In the core BR rules a Thief regent could use their bonus domain action each season to maintain 1 hidden holding of level 1+ as well.
    Last edited by Osprey; 08-17-2021 at 07:51 PM.

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