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  1. #41
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 06:34 PM 4/3/2007, ryancaveney wrote:

    >ROTFLOL! Thank you, thank you, old friends. It`s good to know that I am
    >still remembered appropriately. =) I don`t think I`ve ever been called a
    >meme before, but I like it.

    >Ahhhh, those were the good old days.

    Speaking of memes and good old days, I`ve been meaning to ask you,
    Ryan, if you`re the same person who clarified the physics of
    anti-tank warheads for the illustrious War Nerd sometime about a year
    and a half ago? If not, there`s at least one articulate and
    knowledgable person of the same name running about on the `net....

    If you have no idea what I`m talking about see:
    http://www.exile.ru/2005-December-15/war_nerd_alert.html

    Gary

  2. #42
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Holy crap, it's like 2001 all over again!
    Hi folks!
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman
    Speaking of memes and good old days, I`ve been meaning to ask you,
    Ryan, if you`re the same person who clarified the physics of
    anti-tank warheads for the illustrious War Nerd sometime about a year
    and a half ago? If not, there`s at least one articulate and
    knowledgable person of the same name running about on the `net....
    Yes, that was me. Well spotted!

    I just googled myself, and discovered that I am basically the only "Ryan Caveney" on the net. The computer programming lists and book errata, the MIT musical theater groups, and the NASA weather satellite stuff, as well as the gaming, is all me. The only one I saw with a different Ryan Caveney is a middle school golf team. Actually, "Caveney" alone seems to be a rather uncommon name, since about half of the hits of Somebody Caveney plus Ryan Somebodyelse turn out to include my sister or my cousin. There's a picture of me playing chess in one of the early pages, but I caution against reading the theater reviews too uncritically -- in my (and our director's) opinion, Sweeney Todd and Mrs. Lovett aren't supposed to be comfortable with each other! Listen to the words of that song ("By the Sea") and the encompassing scene: he's just humoring her, paying minimal attention as he plots his revenge and pines for his long-lost wife. I was staring at the audience and being cold to her because it's how the scene is supposed to work. But that's another story -- never mind, anyway.


    Ryan

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by trithemius
    Was I subconsciously channelling Ryan C. the other day with my talk of wizards getting changed by their studies? Or are you thinking of something different?
    I've been combing the fora, but I can't figure out what this is in reference to. Could you point it out, please?

    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck
    I was thinking of something else, how every part of the world has to be adjusted as a result of magic. But I would say you were channelling another argument Ryan has made about magic's impact. Or maybe its just a more specific example of the broader point.
    Ah, yes. For a given level of magic ability, the more people who have it, the less powerful it is. Therefore, paradoxically, the game world which needs the least modification from real-world history is Glorantha, where *everybody* has magic. However, magic is very specialized, and almost entirely skill-enhancing: to some extent, the warleader is the one with the best combat magic, the chief farmer is the one with the best farming magic, and the king is the one with the best rulership magic. It stays reasonably bronze age because the land itself is magical, too: every healer needs to have healing magic, because all diseases are magical in nature, so the effect of everyone having magic somewhat cancels out.

    The trouble with D&D magic is that it's so general, so direct in effect, and neither very rare nor very common. It's nearly indistinguishable from technology: even the BR-specific magic items in the Book of Magecraft include a fax machine and a reconnaissance satellite downlink. The social consequences, much less the military ones, of having something like Cure Disease or Create Food and Water available to perhaps one person in a hundred or a thousand are immense, and have never been thought out. The D&D magic system is tossed into a medieval world without any exploration of the fact that such a world would be changed as much by its introduction as it would by modern technology in the hands of enough people that everyone encounters its effects, but few enough people that most have no direct control over it. Frankly, given the D&D magic system as stated in the PHB, there is no way to avoid every realm becoming a magocracy in very short order.

    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck
    Perhaps instead of channeling, we should attempt summoning?
    You seem to have succeeded.


    Ryan

  5. #45
    I found a decent magic system in Green Ronin's Black Companies book. It seems to limit low level spellcasters to some basic tricks and minor spells, and then once they hit the higher levels, they can do more with what they have. The main thing I like though is that it is a skill driven system and most of the spells take longer than 1 round to cast, and can cause drain on the caster. I would highly recommend this book to everyone based on the magic system alone, although it also has some nice additional combat rules, a new take on a few classes, and is based off of some great novels to boot.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney
    I've been combing the fora, but I can't figure out what this is in reference to. Could you point it out, please?
    Kenneth and I were jawing on an instant-messenger. I was saying that the transformation (corruption!) of the Lost could be just the nastiest example of magic having "side effects" on those who study it. Powerful evocations and summonings are quite injurious to my sense of the BR magical aesthetic, so I theorise that they might be unpopular because they cause changes in the personality, and eventually in the bodies, of those who learn powerful magics from "unsafe" arts (the schools which are prohibited to magicians).

    Divination, Illusion, and lesser magic is okay, since Vorynn and Ruornil have 'sanctified' it, making it safe for humanity to practice.

    I sort of imagine the changes as similar to Warping in Ars Magica Fifth Edition (ArM5); Kenneth seems to like the Taint mechanics from OA/UA.

    Ah, yes. For a given level of magic ability, the more people who have it, the less powerful it is. Therefore, paradoxically, the game world which needs the least modification from real-world history is Glorantha, where *everybody* has magic. However, magic is very specialized, and almost entirely skill-enhancing: to some extent, the warleader is the one with the best combat magic, the chief farmer is the one with the best farming magic, and the king is the one with the best rulership magic. It stays reasonably bronze age because the land itself is magical, too: every healer needs to have healing magic, because all diseases are magical in nature, so the effect of everyone having magic somewhat cancels out.
    I sure love me some Glorantha.
    In Glorantha things that we would treat as technology are magical in nature anyway (Zistor is an AI! A Loskalmi's blade-sharped iron sword is a product of "advanced metallurgy".. which just happens to be practiced by guys with pointy hats... etc).

    The trouble with D&D magic is that it's so general, so direct in effect, and neither very rare nor very common. It's nearly indistinguishable from technology: even the BR-specific magic items in the Book of Magecraft include a fax machine and a reconnaissance satellite downlink. The social consequences, much less the military ones, of having something like Cure Disease or Create Food and Water available to perhaps one person in a hundred or a thousand are immense, and have never been thought out. The D&D magic system is tossed into a medieval world without any exploration of the fact that such a world would be changed as much by its introduction as it would by modern technology in the hands of enough people that everyone encounters its effects, but few enough people that most have no direct control over it. Frankly, given the D&D magic system as stated in the PHB, there is no way to avoid every realm becoming a magocracy in very short order.
    Especially since recent imaginings of realm magic have made divine magic worse than useless. Where is the power that saved humanity from the perils of the Sidhelien now?

    You seem to have succeeded.
    I told Kenneth it was klaatu barada nikto!
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  7. #47
    The special edition of A Game of Thrones had tri-stat rules in their own chapter(a X 2 as big price tag). They probably would have eventually been released on their own, but Guardians of Order went under. A shame. I was thinking about how Tri-Stat AGOT would be perfect for Birthright.

    I like AGOTs fixes to D+D, but using -all- of them would likely be as clunky as regular D+D. :P I mean, there gets to be a point where fixing something is more expensive than buying a new one.

  8. #48
    Well, I have finally begun writing up my own rules for Birthright, using A Game of Thrones as the core system.

    There were a few main parts of this rules system that needed expanding when dealing with a Birthright campaign.

    1. Magic. The basic fire and forget D&D style is far too powerful for AGoT rules, where hit points are drastically reduced. I used the True Sorcery system from Green Ronin's book to handle this, and I think its a great match. It can be powerful at higher levels, but magic users will need to spend multiple rounds in order to cast such spells (which reflects realm and battle spells well). I see great opportunities for encounters between warriors and spellcasters, where it becomes a race to who strikes first, the knight charging on his mount to impale the mage on his lance, or the wizard who frantically collects and focuses his energy to cast a spell to slay the charging knight.

    2. Bloodlines. The GoT rules use feats to handle bloodlines. I also have an issue of Dragon magazine that includes a feat based system for Birthright bloodlines and abilities. So this is the system I will be using with the GoT rules.

    3. Domain Actions/Rules. I'll be using the 2nd edition rules for most of this, as I don't see much need to change them. Proficiencies and such will be converted to skills of course, but otherwise, the rules will remain as in 2nd edition. This includes mass warfare unless the PC's are actively controlling their army or joining a unit in the fight. In that case, I will allow them to use a series of combat opportunities that I found in the Legend of the Five Rings Third Edition RPG to imporove their army's chances.

    4. Magical/Masterwork items. Personally, I hate high magic campaigns, and thus, have made magic items extremely rare, as suggested in AGoT. Even masterwork items become reserved for regents and high level characters who wear or wield unique items to their station.

    Once its finished I'd love to get some feedback from forum members here, so I'll let you know when that day comes

  9. #49
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Very much looking forward to it.

  10. #50

    Birthright, Agot, Midnight oh my!

    I've been following this for a bit now and well this probably is my first post on this site but here goes. I've been looking at doing this very same thing to make Birthright more viable to my current gaming group and from what i've seen you have all done an amazing job. I have a suggestion and criticism is applauded on this. I want to use the backstory of Birthright, the Nit n' Gritty rules of Agot and the magic system of the Midnight Campaign System. This may not seem good at first glance but if you also take the idea of making magic (divine and arcane) base classes (bard, druid, cleric, wiz/sor, etc) and taking them out as base classes then you can use the Midnight system to better effect.
    The nice part about the Midnight system is it allows for more customization on classes. Take for example the character who wants to play a bard: He starts out as a rogue, takeing a couple of levels in that and taking the Spellcasting and Magecraft feats from the midnight setting. He chooses to have Evocation (lesser) from the list of schools in the spellcasting feat description. After a couple more choices by buying spellcasting multiple times he could pick up Enchantment, illusion and Abjuration (basically a bard, though I am probably missing a couple of schools!) His spellcasting is limited to his Con mod however, limiting his destructive capability unless he takes levels in channeler (the core spellcasting class). Even as a channeler you don't really have to worry about fireball spamming as using beyond the channeler pool will take the con of the channeler quickly down until he passes out.
    Anyway thats just my thought, let me know what you think, obviously the spells will still have to be reduced in damage to work for AGOT, I am leaning towards the 1/2 damage rule thus far...

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