Birthright and a game of thrones

[irdeggman]

Oh and another issue, in 2nd ed when the term "magic" was used it almost always refered to what 3.5 calls "arcane" magic.

In general the "clerical" magic was not included in discussions of "magic".

[Mantyluoto]

Question pick up any FR product and you'll see a whole host of NPC's wielding an unbelievable amount of Magic and yes your correct you don't know anything about my FR campaign which stopped when my players reached 9th lvl, which in my book is pretty powerful, and not one of them had anything remotely approaching +5 magic.

irdeggman, Magic is Magic whether Arcane or Divine. I've never seperated it other than by saying Divine Magic or Arcane Magic. if you can make something appear from nothing then thats magic.

again i wander.

[ausrick]

When approaching (Fantasy) gaming, or the lack there of, people and campaign settings have usually two different outlooks. I will use the Knight vrs Peasants illustration:



You have one heroic Knight who has strode into town to put down the peasant uprising. There are two ways a DM will typically adjudicate this. High Fantasy = "Come on, he's a Heroic Knight, peasants are level 0 commoners, 100 peasants, 1000, doesn't matter the Knight will whoop them” Low Fantasy = "The 100's of peasants, taking heavy casualties swarm the Knight, Overbearing him and ripping him from the saddle, grappling him to the ground."



Birthright seems to be more of the second sort of setting to me. Add in the idea that most of the pop louses are fearful of magic, and your setting could become quite hazardous to a mage who abuses flashy magics or gets caught abusing magic of any kind.



I might call the cops if I find that my neighbor is making pipe bombs in his basement, so a townsperson might call the city guards if they know their neighborhood wizard is working on his delayed-blast fireball.



Plus there are all sorts of wonderful things you can do if you want to make being a spell caster tougher. One that comes to mind is since magic is more rare, getting the necessary spell reagents and components, especially for higher-level spells, should be increasingly difficult. To buy things that only 0.1% of the population would have a need for without the advent of UPS, FedEx, or DHL could become a pricy proposition.



Plus I like the idea of people being afraid of all mages, no matter the level, not just for what they can do, but what they're rumored to be able to do.



All that said though, damage spells in 3rd Ed. are balanced with Hit Points and Saving throws for a fair survival to death ratio of similar experience levels. If you are using a more lethal combat system and or lower hit points per level, offensive magic will need to be adjusted somewhat, if not for the sake of realism then for the sake of balance.

[Question]

Are you referring to NPCs like elminster?

9th level is med level and generally speaking most seasoned adventurers would be around that range........

[Osprey]

I've never liked the description of `low-magic' for Birthright. The magic in Birthright can be incredibly powerful.

But this isn't the Forgotten Realms where every other character has magical ability. I think a better descriptor for Birthright is `rare-magic'.

-Fizz

And that sums up the majority opinion of posters here at BR.net, I think.

[epicsoul]

Low magic for me means tight regulation of magic in all forms - and for those that do practice magic, consider high encouragement to play specialist wizzies - losing 2 schools, with perhaps a "perk" for choosing to remove invocation/evocation, plus the extra spell per level, is enough for most players.

Ultimately, however, if players are going to play BR, and if DMs are going to run it, and they WANT low magic, they have to buy into that philosophy. How so?

Well, honestly, if the players and/or the DM don't want that, then they WILL find a way to not make it low magic... and thereby disrupt the flavour. If there isn't buy-in on both levels, then either some player will ask for either an item-creation feat or fireball spell, or the DM will start placing more and more magic items.

For instance, my current campaign, I have been gifted with 7 players that have chosen to buy in to low magic:
1 Anuirean paladin/fighter of Cuiracaen
1 Khinasi fighter/rogue
1 Anuirean noble/rogue
1 Rjurik fighter/ranger
1 half orog barbarian/rogue
1 Sidhelien fighter/enchanter
1 vos fighter

The party, now 4th-5th level, has exactly one magic item - a magic sword, whose abilities they only know a little of (won't reveal, as I know that one peruses the site), although one character has the Blood history ability - he blew his bardic lore roll.

Note, however, that almost all the characters are non spellcasting - by their own choice. The few times they have encountered magic, they have been terrified... other than the Sidhe. And the player of the Sidhe, she voluntarily opted to exclude invoc/evoc from her schools available.

I am not, by any indication, advocating that this is for everyone. For one, it automatically throws off the CR of every encounter - something I still try to account for. If 3.5 is built on the notion that characters will have a certain amount of items by a certain level, then it DOES affect it. Luckily, I could care less. My players love it, having never played low magic before. Now, magic seems truly fantastic when they do encounter it.

It requires work... and a fair number of extra rules. Game of Thrones is a start - as is any additional house rules or rules from various supplements that you may choose, including creating exceptional quality weapons and items - creating other effects besides a +1 to hit.

[irdeggman]

When approaching (Fantasy) gaming, or the lack there of, people and campaign settings have usually two different outlooks. I will use the Knight vrs Peasants illustration:



You have one heroic Knight who has strode into town to put down the peasant uprising. There are two ways a DM will typically adjudicate this. High Fantasy = "Come on, he's a Heroic Knight, peasants are level 0 commoners, 100 peasants, 1000, doesn't matter the Knight will whoop them” Low Fantasy = "The 100's of peasants, taking heavy casualties swarm the Knight, Overbearing him and ripping him from the saddle, grappling him to the ground."



Birthright seems to be more of the second sort of setting to me. Add in the idea that most of the pop louses are fearful of magic, and your setting could become quite hazardous to a mage who abuses flashy magics or gets caught abusing magic of any kind.

The presence of bloodlines helps to mitigate this and IMO push BR back into your definition of High Fantasy.

A scion due soley to his bloodline (regardless of strength) has a presence that the commoners (those without bloodlines and non-nobility) are forced to respect. Something akin to being touched by a deity such that all those around can "sense" something special about the character, maybe not everything but there is "something" that commands respect and sometimes "awe".

Now a mounted solder without a bloodline, no respect and can be mobbed IMO.

[Fizz]

The presence of bloodlines helps to mitigate this and IMO push BR back into your definition of High Fantasy.

Helps to mitigate, yes, as far as rulership goes. But in an armed conflict between this scion and hundred peasants, i'd still bet on the peasants.

Note i'm referring to a typical scion, not an extreme example like the Gorgon, or even one with one particularly powerful blood ability.

At least that how i envision it in my campaigns.

-Fizz

[Question]

That would strongly depends on whether you want to roll combat based on D&D mechanics, or whether you want to use DM fiat.Most DMs go for the latter in PBEMs as the like(hell some exclude adventures nearly totally, which kills a important flavour of BR IMHO), as its easier for them.

Which would also depend on whether you want to run adventures standard D&D style, or just RP with the setting, and throw rules out of the window.

Fluffwise speaking.......it really depends on the situation.You shouldnt just throw a few hundred NPCs at a PC and say "Oh they outnumber you a lot so you lose".Realistically speaking, if you see a huge, armored fighter, slaughtering a dozen of your townspeople without any effort, you, as a peasant, is highly likely to just run for your goddamn life.......assuming you havent done so in the first place.I just dont see hundreds of villagers attacking professional soldiers just like that.......most people would run out of fear or trying to protect their family. A few might choose to fight but they would be in the vast minority, and would probably be the leadership types, or retired soldiers.

You can demonstrate this principle by taking a sword to a crowded area(assuming you knew how to use it), and attacking people left and right.How many people do you think are you going to try and stop you.....within 2 mins there will be a very large zone around you where nobody will dare to enter, with that zone widening as time passes.

Hundreds of armed guards though, would product the effect you are looking for.

[irdeggman]

Helps to mitigate, yes, as far as rulership goes. But in an armed conflict between this scion and hundred peasants, i'd still bet on the peasants.

Note i'm referring to a typical scion, not an extreme example like the Gorgon, or even one with one particularly powerful blood ability.

At least that how i envision it in my campaigns.

-Fizz

Ahh but I wasn't refering to blood abilities but to having a bloodline itself.

IMO merely having a bloodline sets the character apart. True, if he was in a fight with a 100 peasants he would get trunced. But the peasants normally wouldn't attack a scion. There are however extraneous circumstances, like being influenced by another scion, rebellion (and even that is not personal as in one-on-one, etc. But without those circumstances peasants recognize the divinity in a scion and pay him respect - more so than in the traditional nobility of old.

From Book of Regency pg 16



“Bloodlines and blood abilities mean more than power to the Cerilian scion. They imbue each blooded character with distinction—a sign that proclaims to the world that this person is destined to do something. For good or evil, better or worse, a scion links himself to the land the day he inherits a bloodline. His actions will affect the world.”