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  1. #1

    The Colier Caersnon/Copper & Coke Dauren Dilemma

    So,

    In Havens of the Great Bay (p.22), Colier Caernson, guilder of the Impras Silubhra and unwilling markgraf of Dauren, is a guilder who was asked by the community to become an authority. The domain table there report that all guilds (marked CC) are his own.
    a.png
    On page 29, Where the Copper & Coke (also CC) domain table is reported, all guild holdings in Dauren are reported to belong to Darlure Smoothface, the Copper & Coke guilder.
    a.png
    So, who is right? I can see that having two domains with the same legend (CC) could have created some confusion, I'm asking if there is an official errata corrige or we have to figure this out? I was thinking on the line of Caernson being a 'vassal' of the Copper & Coke guild, or splitting the guild holdings between the two domains.

  2. #2
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Well spotted Witness.

    I don't know if there is an official errata, I would expect that as P29 mentions RP and wealth as coming from the temples, that the two domains - realm and guild - have to be the same. That said on P30 Smoothface is described as sending gifts to the rulers of Dauren suggesting a distinction.

    I can't see an easy way to fix it, but would tend to trust a realm description more as the non-realm domains always looked like something of an after thought to me.

    If playing in the area I'd probably be to look at the income (GB/RP) and influence of all the local realms and non-landed domains and see whether Dauren 'needed' the guilds to be playable, and rebuild as necessary from there.

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    The domain tables normally are arranged according to the regents with their names being abbreviated, with the organisation that they represent being listed with their name in the legend underneath [1]. Therefore, if Darlure Smoothface was the Copper & Coke guilder, then it should be abbreviated as DS. In the BRwiki, we have used DSm - http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...?title=Wierech - possibly because we found DS had been used for another abbreviation.

    Note CC is also listed as the Regent for Dauren. The description for Dauren clearly states that he has prominent guild holdings there, called Impras Silubhra.

    In contrast, Wierech's domain table erroneously used CC for Copper & Coke. The description of the guild and its regent make it clear that they are discussing alliances or trade deals with some in Dauren, but there is no actual vassalage or allegiance.

    Therefore, I would take it that CC for Dauren is Colier Caersnon (law and guild holdings) and CC for Wierech should be DSm.

    The description section for guilds seems to have completely forgotten about Caersnon. The table is wrong to think Impras Silubhra and Copper & Coke are one and the same.

    Sorontar

    [1] There are exceptions to this order all over the canon texts, including for entries in Dauren and Wierech.
    Last edited by Sorontar; 06-07-2020 at 03:09 PM. Reason: typos

  4. #4
    If playing in the area I'd probably be to look at the income (GB/RP) and influence of all the local realms and non-landed domains and see whether Dauren 'needed' the guilds to be playable, and rebuild as necessary from there.
    HotGB says Dauren gets 96 GB per season. I can't see how you can make so much without guilds, so I would rule out Copper & Coke from Dauren.

    Therefore, I would take it that CC for Dauren is Colier Caersnon (law and guild holdings) and CC for Wierech should be DSm.
    Agreed.

    b.png

    This passage from Wierech implies that Copper & Coke has to be interpreted as a Wierech(ian?) guild, with Darlure starting to establish diplomacy connections with Dauren. This kinda contradicts p. 29, but it seems the most reasonable thing.

    I will add some note in Copper & Coke (when it's written out) and Dauren about this.

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