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  1. #11
    Need I remind you that there was no such thing as Coup de Grace in the 2E? No? Other people have said it? Well then, let me be redundant...

    You are confusing what is real world mechanics into a magical filled world. Let's examine. You have a magical bow and a magical blood theft arrow. You are 100 feet away from a dying prince/princess. You fire arrow and it hits a massive critical, ending their life.

    Now, who is to say that the blood theft ability doesn't work? What if that "generic" magical bow instead had a tie to the arrow? What if the arrow wasn't "magical" at all but the bow was? What if the arrow transfered the blood draining ability to the bow and thus, through the weilder...?

    Magical ties can be added to pretty much anything ranged and can have the affect above. That was the point of 3.0/3.x, to allow for things like this.

    Everyone is looking at Birthright 3.5 through 2.0 glasses. You need to open it up a bit and see that 3.X has opened doors that restricted it in the TSR daze.

    Now, I am not expecting it to be canon. Hell, I am not expecting ANYTHING to be official at this moment until something gets published, but as a rule I would allow ranged blood theft. Plain and simple because 3.X allows me to do it. You may not like it, but don't DISMISS it because "they never did it in the 2.0 days".

    Make you sound like ol' coots!

  2. #12
    Senior Member ausrick's Avatar
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    Bloodtheft



    If a blooded character is slain as the result

    of being pierced through the heart

    (via a
    coup de grace), then the victim's

    divine essence passes, in its entirety, to

    the slayer (blooded or not). Specifically

    slaying a scion through a blow to the

    heart to claim their bloodline is commonly

    referred to as
    bloodtheft. Bloodtheft

    also occurs when a scion is slain by

    a weapon made of bloodsilver

    (
    Tighmaevril).







    yes, in third edition bows confer their magical properties to the ammunition, usually. However that is speaking about things like "+2" or "Keen", a Mithril bow doesn't make its ammunition lighter and a bow constructed out of silver doesn't bypass lycanthrope's damage reduction. How do you make a bow entirely out of bloodsilver anyways. However, if a bow had the ability "heartseeker" I would imagine that its ammunition would seek the heart on a critical hit much as vorpal seeks the neck. Tighmaevril is a material, not an enchantment. I don't see it confering its inate properties to other objects.

    Obviously, if you are using bloodsilver arrows/bolts, I would say that if you used them for the killing shot of the scion, it would count as bloodtheft. I thought that was what I said in my previous post Leif, maybe I didn't word it correctly. What I was saying about being "canon" was the "existance" of bloodsilver ammunition. What I was trying to say was that I doubted the elven smith who made all the bloodsilver weapons eons ago ever spent the time and energy on making bloodsilver ammunition. The flavor text, IIRC states that he didn't know of the ability the metal possessed to steal bloodlines when he made the weapons. He made the weapons as prized possessions. And I don't know of princes out there who say "Look at my esquisitely crafted arrows", It is usually the weapon and not the ammunition that gets the tender loving care of the artisans work, weapons are meant to be heirlooms while ammunition is meant to become broken and lost through use.

    About plain old Usurpation:

    However, because the scions divine essence is contained in

    his blood, this usurpation can only occur if a scion dies in a

    violent manner and his blood is literally spilt. If a blooded

    character dies non-violently, by poison, or a spell that doesn’t

    result in the spilling of blood, then the divine essence of their

    bloodline passes with them, either to their heir or to into the

    land itself if they had not designated a heir. However, if a

    scion’s blood is spilt as a result of his death in hand-to-hand

    combat then the divine essence of his or her birthright is released

    in a burst of immediate power.

    This all hinges on how you interpret "hand-to-hand", since the BRCS playtest mentions poison and spell that doesn't shed blood, this makes me think that for vanilla flavor Usurpation, spilling blood violently is the key, in which case fire your bow crafted from whatever materials from whatever range and just kill that scion. Only thing is that if you are far away you will be far away when it comes to determining who is closest for determining the burst of immediate power.
    Regards,
    Ausrick

  3. #13
    Thanks to everyone for providing for some pretty good input, here. I have enough from all the various opinions and suggestions to make my own decision, now. Though, it looks like we're starting to debate and become rules lawyers. No matter. However, there is one thing I would like to respond to:

    Originally Posted by LeifVignirsson
    Everyone is looking at Birthright 3.5 through 2.0 glasses. You need to open it up a bit and see that 3.X has opened doors that restricted it in the TSR daze.
    I have played 3rd Ed/3.5 Ed enough to know that I do not like it. There are a few things that I like (a few character classes and things), but, for the most part, any "rules" that appear to open the doors actually either existed in 1st Ed, or simply took a little thought on the part of the DM to administer. Simply because there wasn't a table or graph to look up dice rolls didn't mean a certain "rule" couldn't exist. It only makes logical sense that a magical longbow +2 would confer that to-hit and damage bonus to the ammunition. It doesn't make sense that the only way that bonus comes into play is if the wielder runs up and smacks someone across the head with their longbow. This has been a guideline I've used for missile weapons for years, now.

    Remember, they're called Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide for a reason. If anyone believes their game was restricted because some table or graph of rolls didn't exist (or anything else), then it is your fault that your game was restricted. All it takes to "open doors" is your mind.

    Also, I've had the opportunity to play with many, many players over the past 15 years. Of all of these, an overwhelming majority of the ones that play 3rd Ed never played 1st or 2nd. I wonder how true this is of other people? If it is, then the only ones looking at this through "2nd Ed glasses" are people like me. If this, and the fact that I stick to a blend of 1st and 2nd Ed, makes me a lesser player and fan, then I don't know what to say. What I do know is that I've been DM-ing for 13 years now, and I know the game better than I know the back of my hand.

    I ought to stop now before I write a book.....

    No hard feelings.

    Lae'Andril Rayn

  4. #14
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Actually I started playing with 1st ed (just missed out on the the OD&D boxed set by about a year or so).

    I find that 3.5 (much improved over 3.0 by the way) does so many things better than 2nd ed (and 1st ed) did that it really isn't a fair comparison.

    Higher is better as the standard rule for dice rolling made things so much better.

    One experience table instead of separate ones for each class is another one.

    Skills and feats is another one. Skills started to emerge from proficiencies in Player's Option: Skills and Powers and helped to cement the system where you actually got better at doing things as you gained levels instead of just combat.

    The entire team play concept is a vast improvement over 2nd ed's rewarding of individual actions that often pitted PC against PC and left players with a bad taste in their mouth when their fighter dished out 95% of the damage on a monster and someone else's managed to get in the killing blow and thus the experience award for the kill. (I saw this one happen far too often in our games).

    The relative ease of multiclassing is a great thing overall. No more having to use house-rules (or optional ones) to get your dwarf cleric to go over 10th level.

    Magic, well that is still a weakness in the whole thing - most likely it will be the thing that changes whenever 4th ed comes out.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #15
    Senior Member ausrick's Avatar
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    I started playing I believe when AD&D came out, the one with, IIRC, the people stealing the jewel out of the demon statue on the cover of the DMG and too much nudity in the monster manual if I remeber. (I didn't actually buy my own books until TSR re-did them all with the Players Option: line of books, just bummed them off of my friends).

    Nothing against the older editions and those people who play them. When 3.0 was released I was very upset and skeptical. (Especially steamed that I couldn't use my Core Rules 2.0 CD anymore for character generation.) Even when I purchased the PHB I was let down. Coming off of using books like "Skills and Powers" it just seemed that the options were weak. It was only after I really dove into it and saw the other suppliment books that were produced that the value of it made any sense to me. They made the system more modular and more able to customize it from within its framework. Previously, if you wanted to add a house rule to handle something it was largely up to the DM's perception on chances, possible outcomes, etc. Depending on your DM's inate ability to do this. New books and editions "added" onto the rules, not integrated with them.

    I had a blast in 2nd edition, I had some DM's that had made up a rule system to allow people to spot creatures that were hiding because they thought that a creature with good vision or reasonable skill at looking for things could see. However each individual DM had to make a ruleset like that, where a lot of those options were integrated in d20. However I also had DM's that lacked that ability to "ajudicate" what was possible. One DM wouldn't allow me to slit an incapacitated character's throat or stab them in the heart for instant death, no matter that they are bound, gagged, and unconscious, because a dagger only does 1d4 damage and the victim had 68 hit points left.

    If I say specifically something like "third edition allows bows to confer their bonuses" I wasn't implying that 2nd or 1st did not. I just don't have any of the older rule books logged up in my noodle well enough still to be able to rip quotes from.

    I often assume people who come here are using something other than AD&D 2nd edition only because that is what the original books were printed in. I often times forget that Cerillia was a world that still had many tales to tell but was cut short due to TSR ceasing to exist and that a lot of people that love the setting, even while playing with the rules it was originally written for, still have questions/wonderings/ponderings. I naturally assume we are talking about 3.0/3.5 because this site is the home of the d20 BRCS and Atlas projects. But it is also the ongoing home of Birthright, and I have met people that use all sorts of rulesets to play a birthright campaign. (Palladium, the White-Wolf D10 stuff, even a "Role-playing in Her Majesty's Secret Service" adaptation if you can imagine.) So I am sorry that I assumed everyone was wanting a 3.0/3.5 d20 rules answer to things.

    To better answer the original question regardless of ruleset used. I would say, as a DM, if you or the majority of your players favor the gritty, hands-on, get your hands dirty feel of bloodtheft, then it would be in your interest to rule that it has to form a physical conduit for the divine energy to flow. (In which case you could even rule that if the person stabbed them through the heart but let go of the weapon before the bloodtheft finished that it would fail). If however, you like the idea of sneaky, underhanded villains who like to deal death cowardly and safely with minimal risk to themselves and want them to be able to bloodtheft, allow ranged. Also, if you have a player that has specialized their character to be some sort of ranged-weapon master and he has eschewed the skill and proficiency of melee combat to better focus in ranged weaponry, even to the point of where they have no penalties or provoke any sort of "attack of opportunity" from drawing, nocking, and firing at enemies who are close enough to grab/tackle/stab/bite. . . I would say you would want to consider allowing ranged bloodtheft, if only for the fact that the player would feel handicapped in your campaign if you did not. "Hows come the melee fighter has gotten to bloodtheft the last 3 awnshe we have fought, just because he's up close. Even on a Usurpation my character is too far away from the radius. I'm just as good as everyone else and help the team but now I have the lowest bloodline score" is potentially how that player might feel. I guess gameplay wise it could come down to what you choose to reward/punish, and how your players are going to handle it. I would recommend that you be consciencious of that. It is about having fun and challenging players in the end. (and some people would include "being fair")

    I know I've rambled and wrote a book, sorry about that.
    Regards,
    Ausrick

  6. #16
    I know, people have their reasons for liking one thing over another. I'm not here to try and convince people that 2nd Ed is better, or that 3rd Ed is better. I simply have my reasons for liking 2nd Edition more than 3rd. I don't complain about not being able to find 2nd Ed stuff anymore; I simply get 3.0/3.5 material and convert it to 2nd. It's not that hard...

    To irdeggman: Thanks again for all the input. Also, thanks for tipping off Arjan (correct guy who runs this site?) of the trouble we were experiencing last week. Also, if you're interested, I have a large cache of 2nd Ed Birthright stuff (not for sale ) that I may be able to use to help people here. If you are interested, I will compile a list of all the material and send it to you. I don't know, maybe it's not necessary?

    Take it easy!

    Lae'Andril Rayn

  7. #17
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    To better answer the original question regardless of ruleset used. I would say, as a DM, if you or the majority of your players favor the gritty, hands-on, get your hands dirty feel of bloodtheft, then it would be in your interest to rule that it has to form a physical conduit for the divine energy to flow. (In which case you could even rule that if the person stabbed them through the heart but let go of the weapon before the bloodtheft finished that it would fail). If however, you like the idea of sneaky, underhanded villains who like to deal death cowardly and safely with minimal risk to themselves and want them to be able to bloodtheft, allow ranged. Also, if you have a player that has specialized their character to be some sort of ranged-weapon master and he has eschewed the skill and proficiency of melee combat to better focus in ranged weaponry, even to the point of where they have no penalties or provoke any sort of "attack of opportunity" from drawing, nocking, and firing at enemies who are close enough to grab/tackle/stab/bite. . . I would say you would want to consider allowing ranged bloodtheft, if only for the fact that the player would feel handicapped in your campaign if you did not. "Hows come the melee fighter has gotten to bloodtheft the last 3 awnshe we have fought, just because he's up close. Even on a Usurpation my character is too far away from the radius. I'm just as good as everyone else and help the team but now I have the lowest bloodline score" is potentially how that player might feel. I guess gameplay wise it could come down to what you choose to reward/punish, and how your players are going to handle it. I would recommend that you be consciencious of that. It is about having fun and challenging players in the end. (and some people would include "being fair")
    For the most part I agree with you. However, I am of the school that "setting trumps core rules." That is, setting first, make the rules fit second. Bloodtheft via stabbing through the heart was a very distinct part of the Birthright setting. If new players aren't aware of this, it's one of the things I'd try to impress upon them when generating characters. Heroic melee fighters DO get the spotlight in Cerilia, and DO tend to have the strongest bloodlines. In Anuire, this has reinforced the idea of heroic hand-to-hand combat; for the Awnsheghlien, it has encouraged monstrous forms that also tend to brutalize enemies up close. For those would-be bloodthieves who don't want to be melee fighters, then they'll need to use a bit more cunning and care. Like specializing in disabling enemies from afar (Enchantment spellcasters are great at this) or sapping them from hiding, then running in to deliver a coup de grace through the heart.

    "It's not fair" is only true if the players were ignorant of how the world works when they made their characters. If they know how bloodtheft works, but made their archer specialist anyways, they really have no grounds to complain about how the fighter is always getting all the best gains from bloodtheft. The fighter is also probably taking the most beatings (as tanks do), and is risking Usurpation every time a bloodline is stolen or "detonates" [BRCS]. "Them's the ropes" in Birthright.

    Osprey

  8. #18
    Senior Member ausrick's Avatar
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    Very Valid point, Opsrey, I didn't even think of it that way.
    Regards,
    Ausrick

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