The Arms of Roesone

[ausrick]

Flaming Burst

A flaming burst weapon functions as a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit.

The fire does not harm the hands that hold the weapon. Flaming burst weapons deal +1d10 points of bonus fire damage on a

successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is x3, add +2d10 points of bonus fire damage instead, and if the

multiplier is x4, add +3d10 points of bonus fire damage. Bows, crossbows, and slings so enchanted bestow the fire energy upon

their ammunition.

Caster Level: 12th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Market Price: +2

bonus.

My understanding is that it just does extra damage on a critical hit. But, I see how one could interpret burst as having an area effect, though it would have to have a radius assigned to it, probably taking up 5ft diameter (one square) or at most 20ft Radius like a fireball spell. Either way, an Area of Effect sword sounds dangerous and powerful. If that was your intterpretation that your group gamed by, then by all means downgrade it to only a "flaming" sword. In my opinion elemental burst weapons aren't worth the market price modifier of +2 anyways, but as found treasure thats not so much of an issue, just as a player I would rather use that additonal +1 market value to make it keen or add a second elemental damage to it if I was the one having to spend the GP and XP to craft it.

[ausrick]

Just some corrections to my post before anyone finds too much fault with it, just want to clarify.

When I said all it does "is" extra damage on a critical hit", I didn't mean all as in all, I meant as opposed to area effect. I know that a burst weapon still does the 1d6 elemental damage on any kind of hit.

As for when a person might make a burst weapon, there are times. If you had a weapon that had a really large crit window, like a Kukri, and you had keen on it and improved critical feat, and you were the Kensei class from Oriental Adventures, because thats the version that gets increased critical multipliers as an ability, then I can see someone running the numbers and being able to tell that that would hurt. So it isn't that the +2 modifier is never worth it for a burst weapon, just not "most of the time"

[irdeggman]

Note that the "burst" only occurs on a confirmed critical hit and that damage is added to the damage done to the targer - so I think it is pretty clear it is "not" an area effect.



From the SRD:

[quoteFlaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.


Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +1 bonus.

Flaming Burst: A flaming burst weapon functions as a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. In addition to the extra fire damage from the flaming ability (see above), a flaming burst weapon deals an extra 1d10 points of fire damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is x3, add an extra 2d10 points of fire damage instead, and if the multiplier is x4, add an extra 3d10 points of fire damage. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.

Even if the flaming ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra fire damage on a successful critical hit.


Strong evocation; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +2 bonus.[/quote]

[ConjurerDragon]

ausrick schrieb:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
>You can view the entire thread at:
>http://www.birthright.net/showthread...newpost&t=2863
>
>...
>As for when a person might make a burst weapon, there are times. If you had a weapon that had a really large crit window, like a Kukri, and you had keen on it and improved critical feat, and you were the Kensei class from Oriental Adventures, because thats the version that gets increased critical multipliers as an ability, then I can see someone running the numbers and being able to tell that that would hurt. So it isn`t that the +2 modifier is never worth it for a burst weapon, just not "most of the time"
>
The 3.5 DMG clarifies that the "keen" ability of a weapon does not stack
with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as
the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat) so having a keen
weapon AND the Improved Critical feat would be useless.
bye
Michael

[Lee]

In a message dated 12/9/05 2:09:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Commanders, especially the really high up ones often seem to have special
weapons that set them apart from the average Grunt or special training and
combat prowess, especially during times in warfare where the commanders engaged
in dangerous combat similar to their men. I`m reminded of General Patton
having those pearl handled pistols he carried with him all the time. >>

Psst, Ivory! He snapped at reporters who called them pearl.

Lee.

[ausrick]

Thanks Lee, you are correct, Ivory, and they were I think Colt .45 peacemakers, and he primarily wore them when he was addressing his common soldiers, but not around the officers?

Keen doesnt' stack with the improved critical feat? I don't have the 3.5 DMG, but in the 3.0 DMG I don't remember it saying it didn't stack. At somepoint I would think it has to because I remember a text somewhere stateing that if you double the threat range, and double it again, it would go from say 19-20, to 17-20, to 15-20, as opposed to 19-20 to 17-20, to 13-20. And if you had just a x20 weapon, it would go to 19-20, and then 18-20, not 20, to 19-20, to 17-20. Why would they even have the rules for stacking/doubling them if it was impossible to do it? I'm not being argumentative by the way, I'm just trying to understand how it really works.

[irdeggman]

They stacked in 3.0 they do not stack in 3.5.

[ausrick]

Ok, I scoured my hard drive and found a copy of the SRD from 3.0 which says as follows:

Improved Critical [General]
Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8 or higher.
Benefit: When using the weapon the character selected, the character's threat range is doubled.
Special: The character can gain this feat multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time the character takes the feat, it
applies to a new weapon.
Note: "Keen" magic weapons also double their normal, nonmagical threat range. As with all doubled doublings, the result is
triple.

I went to the wizards of the coast website, downloaded the new SRD and it says:

IMPROVED CRITICAL [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon.
Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
A fighter may select Improved Critical as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Evidently, this must be one of the small things that has changed.

So is an extra 1-10 damage that will only happen at a maximum of 5%-15% equal to an extra 1 damage that will happen 100% of the times that you hit and also comes with a +1 to hit? If you are going for flavor and feel yes, but just straight out running the percentages I guess 3.5 has less reason for a player to want to make a burst weapon. Even on a threat of 19-20 if your burst did d10 every time, it would be exactly equal over the long haul to having an additional +1 dmg. I guess where this math is flawed is that on the rolls you miss obviously you don't do that +1 damage, so the higher the armor class of the opponent the more valuable the burst is, but having an additional +1 to attack gives you a 5% increase in your chances of doing any damage at all per attack. Leif, sorry to turn your post into a discussion on the value of burst weapons though.

[LeifVignirsson]

That is all right, I am glad that there can be a discussion at all on anything. This helps in making up my mind for any tweaks I might do if I ever run a campaign in Roesone, though I can tell you now that the keen rule gets tweaked majorly BACK to 3.0. I liked having fighters that could do a crit on a 13-20, and even though you hit a critical, you would still have to confirm that it is a critical or not. That is just how bitchin some fighters are.

[irdeggman]

Don't forget that there are feats in 3.5 that allow an increase to rolls to confirm criticals (IIRC it is in Complete Warrior and grants a +4 to confirmation rolls).


Also these apply to any attack made with the weapon. So if a character has multiple attacks (via high BAB or spells like Haste) this increases things greatly.

Also the rules for fighting with two weapons are lessened in 3.5 (only need two weapon fighting style) and again there are feats that increase the number of off hand attacks available. So it is not that hard to get to 4 attacks with primary hand and 3 with off hand, with an extra attack if hasted.

And then factor in the rogue's sneak attack, which is applicable any time that the conditions are met. Which means that if a rogue flanks a foe he gets his sneak attack damage for all of his attacks and if he uses two weapons (absolutely recommended for those power gaming rogues) with a set of keen bursting kukri (yes requires a martial weapons feat, but. . .). And if one is flaming and the other is frost or shocking then there are multiple energy types in effect (all the better for DR and creatures suscepable to certain types of energy).

1d4 15-20/x2 + 1d6 (flaming) + 1d10 burst (on confirmed critical) + xd6 (for sneak attack dice).

Now allow stacking of keen effects and the threat range goes to 12-20 with that +4 to confirm a critical and only a -2 on attacks to use 2 light weapons with two handed weapon fighting. Actually could mix weapons so that have a one-handed weapon in primary hand with a light weapon in off hand. If the primary weapon is a rapier (same threat range as a kukri, one-handed, finessable with 1d6 damage). Take weapon finesse feat and apply Dex mod instead of Str to attack rolls with both weapons - and since rogues tend to have a high Dex - here comes the damage.

Be real, real careful if you try to combine 3.0 and 3.5 things can get out of hand quickly.