Winning as Tuornen

[Haelyn]

Hi guys.

I am new here so pardon some breaches in protocol.

I had a question about 'winning' in birthright. I know, winning is not a term one uses in the grimdark setting of birthright, where survival is scarce. But I am trying to get the best I can while playing as Tuornen in our P&P campaign as its Duke.

Some background:

In our campaign that has lasted for 2 and a half years now, we have reached a level equivalent to that of 12 or 13 in D&D in an in house developed ruleset. We have recently managed to Kill Rhuobhe with some one time use story powah!!! However this only replaced him with his son, Spiritrender from the Sword and the Crown adventure.

So Tuornen still faced Rhuobhe, but with a window of time to make some quick advances against other fronts.

Additionally, I am allied with Avanil and right *now* avanil and boruine are at peace. Moreover, I have passably good relations with Boruine as well.

Thus the main problems to me appear from Alamie or Five peaks. Alamie is now allied with Mhoried with marriage ties.

Can you guys suggest some long term strategy that can take clear advanteage of these situations?

Thanks in advance!

[AndrewTall]

No breaches, we are fairly informal here.

One approach is to see the ties between Mhoried and Alamie not as threat but as opportunity, the shield is ever hopeful for allies against the Gorgon and given some support may encourage Alamie to tolerate a free Tuornen.

Otherwise Ghoere is doubtless deeply concerned by the alliance of Alamie and Mhoried, its mercenary links give it significant deniable aid and while one must be wary dealing with such folk, and mindful of your alliance with Avanil, support may be available if requested in appropriate manner.

The clear approach is to request support from Avanil given its rivalry with Mhoried, likely available given the Mhor's increasing influence, such support may of course come at a price but then all support does I fear.

On other matters Boeruine clearly has bored soldiers if it isn't at odds with Avanil, perhaps it would be interested in clearing some of the unclaimed forest land to the north?

Endier has its own awnsheghlien issues, and you've clearly proved your prowess in that field, perhaps given your alliance with Avanil and a basic agreement with Ghoere you could 'persuade' the free city to accept your 'support'?

[arpig2]

Hit whoever is weak and alone

[Haelyn]

Thanks Andrew. More background:

Endier is already a very strong ally to Tuornen. I fear, however, that going after the spider right after killing Roubhe would be pressing my luck too much. The circumstances leading to Rhuobhe death were very specific/unique. I do not think we will have a similar opportunity with the Spider as well.

Going into the FIve peaks sounds intriguing. I am just wondering if it is worth it. Considering that this border is right now chaotic, entering there would invite/create another hostile enemy. On the other hand, there is a definite ooportunity there. I was planning to ask one of the PCs to carve out a realm there with my support. That way a buffer is formed between me and the five peaks.

I think I will elect to make peace with Alamie. However, their leaders are vile and trecherous. How does one befriend such regents? Another option for me, would be to use guile of the same sort that Alamie does and convince Mhoried that they are plotting againt the Mhor. The sister of the duke of Alamie is married to the Mhor. Maybe I could convince the Mhor that she is poisoning him?

[Nicholas Harrison]

I would consider allying with the Western Imperial Temple.

One of the interesting dimensions here is that it is in the Western Imperial Temple's interest to see Alamie and Tuornen united under one ruler. It gives them a distinct advantage as the state religion -- with a 1/2 to 1/4-1/4 advantage, as opposed to their current 1/2-1/2 split in each realm. They also have a lot of money.

The problem there is that none of the other major powers (Avanil, Boeruine, Mhoried, or Ghoere) would normally want to see a restored Greater Duchy as it adds a fifth potential contender. However, they might see it as a possible counterbalance to the Mhoried-Alamie alignment.

You have a natural shared faith alignment with Avanil through the Western Imperial Temple. Ghoere has a natural interest in countering Mhoried's growing interest. And, after killing the Manslayer (whom the Archduke saw as a personal enemy), you might be able to get Boeruine to overlook your manuever. (His personality seems the most likely to consider "repaying" the debt of killing off one of his enemies.)

So, you might just be able to make it work -- maybe garnering aid from all three of the other major powers if you made it clear that you had no interest in the Iron Throne, perhaps even signing an agreement to that effect. That would be somewhat believable too because you could "suggest" that Mhoried is already aiding Alamie in creating a restored Greater Duchy. Your argument might be that the other powers should consider whether they want a house with a direct traceable line to one of the ancient great houses (who might be a possible contender) or a house descended from a collateral bastard, who lacks the dignity to make a true claim on the Iron Throne.

[Haelyn]

I would consider allying with the Western Imperial Temple.

One of the interesting dimensions here is that it is in the Western Imperial Temple's interest to see Alamie and Tuornen united under one ruler. It gives them a distinct advantage as the state religion -- with a 1/2 to 1/4-1/4 advantage, as opposed to their current 1/2-1/2 split in each realm. They also have a lot of money.

The problem there is that none of the other major powers (Avanil, Boeruine, Mhoried, or Ghoere) would normally want to see a restored Greater Duchy as it adds a fifth potential contender. However, they might see it as a possible counterbalance to the Mhoried-Alamie alignment.

You have a natural shared faith alignment with Avanil through the Western Imperial Temple. Ghoere has a natural interest in countering Mhoried's growing interest. And, after killing the Manslayer (whom the Archduke saw as a personal enemy), you might be able to get Boeruine to overlook your manuever. (His personality seems the most likely to consider "repaying" the debt of killing off one of his enemies.)

So, you might just be able to make it work -- maybe garnering aid from all three of the other major powers if you made it clear that you had no interest in the Iron Throne, perhaps even signing an agreement to that effect. That would be somewhat believable too because you could "suggest" that Mhoried is already aiding Alamie in creating a restored Greater Duchy. Your argument might be that the other powers should consider whether they want a house with a direct traceable line to one of the ancient great houses (who might be a possible contender) or a house descended from a collateral bastard, who lacks the dignity to make a true claim on the Iron Throne.

Wow. This is a really thorough, real-politic advice. My sincere thanks. I am planning to adopt segments of this advice. I will NOT sign an agreement that Tuornen is WILL not stake claim to the throne. There are two reasons: I do not plan to deny future regents of Tuornen their possbly legitimate claim. No one will believe it anyway.

However, I can personally claim to have no interest in being an Emperor.

Another reson why it might not work, is that I am not really a direct descendent of Dalton. I am in fact a Tuor, who have a claim to old dynasties on their own. My mother was Leila Flaertaes. Since you gave such a ridiculously good answer, can you suggest a way to make Alamie actually being aligned with Tuornen? I am thinking about using religious sentiments of the people to make that happen based on your post. But that seems inadaquate to allay the problems with the current dutchy. A military solution is simply inacceptable. Not only it has a good chance to fail, but it will make any future efforts difficult if not outright impossible.

[Osprey]

I have been running a solo Pathfinder Birthright game for a PC who is the Paladin regent of the Militant Order of Cuiraecen (Mhoried, Ghoere, Tuornen, Imp City).
In this game, Laela Flaertes (1/2 elf female NG bard) is an early ally, who asks for help and adventuring companionship in hunting monster, goblin, and giant threats from the Five Peaks. With some multiple adventures and growing success and trust, friendship develops, and later, a romantic involvement that leads eventually to marriage in the current game time. (It also leads to an angry Eyeless One casting a Gate realm spell that opens 6 portals and lets Abbyssal armies pour forth into Haesrien on the wedding night, but that's a another tale!).

So I have been running Laela and Tuornen as a primary ally NPC, thinking about all sides as we go, and have come up with a few strategies and running tactics I think would work:
1. Take over and expand the Guilds of Tuornen, starting with a growing monopoly in Haesrien. Target 1 guilder at a time as a rival; create guild holdings (the slow part), stockpile RP, then lead realm actions to contest all of a rival's guilds at one time, usually for 2 months in a row to destroy most or all of them in 1 season. Then Rule your own guilds up in their place, construct some internal trade routes (Tuornen is ideal with its diverse terrain for internal trade between provinces). I left Guilder Kalien for 2nd to last but dealt with him eventually too (the characters were getting higher level, and Kalien is way less scary at that point). Years later PAI of Avanil is the final guilder to fall, but as Avan's pet he is left alone for quite some time until Laela is ready to deal with Avan himself as a political threat.
2. With the massive financial and regency boost of a growing monopoly of guilds and trade within the duchey, Laela can afford to start mustering and supporting a growing professional army of veteran troops, as well as strengthening fortifications in Haesrien and other key provinces (Tuor's Hold becomes her #2 province and fortress, commanding the river junction opposite Endier and competing for the same trade spot).
3. With additional military security, Laela can make her bid to clean up the influence of foreign law regents (GK was kicked out long ago, but AB and DA remain). There's more than 1 way to do this, but the goal is to kick out 1st Aeric Boeruine (the slightly easier target), then a few seasons later make the final push to get rid of Darien Avan. This is one of the hardest but most important challenges for Tuornen to overcome and be truly independent. It could be many years of domain time passing before the regent of Tuornen can take such a step, but it should always be a goal. The better she can fully control her law, the more she can relax a little when it comes to the political threats that Boeruine and Avanil's regency pools can represent.

So how does she deal with those regency pools when contesting law holdings of Avan and Boeruine? I think different DM's will see many different opportunities for story options here, not to mention the infinite interpretations of how Avan and Boeruine would be acting both before and after such an event, but here's how I played it out in my game:
Laela uses long-distance Espionage on the Taeghas-Boeruine border in the 1st month of a season (Summer of 558 MR in my game). With herself and a hand-selected band of veteran bard and rogue agents (including a strong Spymaster Lt. to run the 2nd band), she robbed Darien Avan's tax collectors in Portage and Bayside, and plants a few of pieces of evidence (backed by bardic enchantments and illusions as needed) to convince Avan's lawmen that Boeruine's men are the ones who robbed them.
The predicted result happens (with a strong Espionage check): Darien Avan is pissed off, and launches Espionage then a multi-Contest action against Boeruine's hidden law holdings in Taeghas, which starts a heavy RP bidding war between the 2; in my game the dice and advantage of being the aggressor in Contest led to Avan destroying all 3 level 0 law holdings that AB had there).
So month 2 and 3 (Avan with domain initiative has already played his 1st and 2nd actions of the season) Laela Flaertes, with a large pool of regency ready, launches her Contest realm action on every Darien Avan law holding in Tuornen (a 4 x province action: 2 x L3, 2 x L0 haw holdings are contested). The provinces of Tuor's Hold and Nabhriene become the heavy battlegrounds (DA 3 law in each, Laela 0). I even gave Avan very high RP reserves at the start of the season, as he is a cautious one, but after 1st battling with Boeruine (80 RP spent by each), his remaining reserves get depleted enough that Laela can overcome him (DA spends *another* 80 RP in month 2, and Laela spends 75 RP to counter and easily defeat him then). Month 3 is a cleanup, where she drops another Contest Law realm action against remaining DA AND AB law holdings (Boeruine's are 3 x level 0 at this point).
Fearing their more major rivals, neither regent spends more RP in month 3 (Aeric Boeruine laughs when he hears of the thrashing DA gets in month 2, then realizes it's his turn the following month, and decides to conserve his not-so-large remaining RP reserves rather than risk losing them all for a few level 0 holdings against a clearly strong opponent with an unknown amount of her own regency left).
Fallout: In 1 season, Laela Flaertes rids Tuornen of foreign law holdings altogether, and the following season will begin to rule up her own law holdings in their place. Another season later she is contesting PAI guild holdings out of Nabhriene and elsewhere, easily winning while spending far less regency than PAI does trying to hold on without Avan's law backing him up anymore.
Other consequences are an irritated Aeric Boeruine and an outraged Darien Avan and PAI, which could mean a lot of things...but as long as Boeruine remains a true rival, Avan may not feel he can afford military retaliation without some strong allies joining in (I was thinking Alamie and Ghoere joining Avanil in a 3-way invasion might be good though, heheh).

RESULT: A very powerful and independent duchey - 7 provinces (which have been getting steadily ruled higher over the years) under 1 regent who controls the Land, Law, and Guilds, plus numerous trade routes. This leaves Tuornen wealthy, well-protected by a strong military, and backed by regularly large Regency reserves. Now easily the match or better of most other Anuirean regents in power and influence, Laela Flaertes is in a position to do almost anything she wants politically.

SIDEBAR: Her Sidhelien half-brother is a (minor) blooded Wizard and another major NPC who adventures with the group, and after they defeat the Eyeless One will be stepping in to take control of the sources of the Five Peaks and Tuornen, eventually Alamie and Thurazor too). So that covered the other major weakness in Turonen, needing a good wizard to protect it.
Also...in my game, Caine of Endier is later slain by Rhuobhe Manslayer after Caine tries to stop Rhuobhe contesting his level 5 source in Elevesnemiere, and gets ambushed by the Manslayer and bloodthefted. A confrontation with Rhuobhe is due to happen sooner or later (and as the party is hitting 18th-19th level in Pathfinder terms, they might be potentially capable of taking him! But I have made him a 28th level W/F/Eldritch Knight character, so we'll see just how strong they are!).