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  1. #11
    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    A perspective often used in fantasy is for the women to control the churches and the men to be the military leaders. One holds the hands and the other holds the hearts.
    That is a classic one, one I have fallen back on more than a few occasions, but it doesn't really solve the problem because it relegates women to a supporting role, and the least popular supporting role at that**. Just look at any PBEM campaign, all the landed regents are snapped up quickly, but there are almost always a bunch of Guild and Temple domains available for late comers. I think that the goal is to provide for more women in the fun positions everybody wants to play without them being an exception.

    Of course, what we are talking in this thread is about making each gender be universally represented, not giving them dominance in a particular area.
    I can't speak for the OP, but that isn't how I read her intent at all. what I got out of it was to achieve over all gender parity, not universal gender parity, an interpretation which I think is confirmed by the OP's enthusiastic response to my post giving an idea of a way to make women the dominant gender in one of the 5 major cultures.

    I am talking about Boeruine being different to Talinie which is different to Diemed.
    Not really, the differences between one domain and another are for the most part entirely cosmetic, even the differences between the cultures are not all that profound, being mostly a flavour thing rather than any major fundamental differences, especially when it comes to issues of gender parity.

    ps. Many female awnsheghlien are regents
    That is exactly the sort of thing that I meant when I said thatthey needed some special back story to account for their gender. It is a perfect illustration of the issue the OP is raising.

    ** And reinforces patriarchal gender stereotypes as well.
    Last edited by arpig2; 09-20-2014 at 02:06 PM.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    I want to thank Duck Call Lass for bringing this up, because her doing so has made me realize that I have been pretty remiss in this myself. It just never became apparent that it was an issue because all my table top Birthright players have been guys, except for my daughter, and trust me, even if she was playing in an entirely female dominated setting, she'd still be an exception (she's likes playing really oddball characters -- she takes after her old man that way. Ask me about Calynid the Slayer some time).

    But, now that I think about it, thanks to the OP, the very heavy male emphasis in my Zaidan setting (sort of a natural offshoot of it being a blatant Medieval Japanese setting) cost me a few players that I know of, and likely a few more who never even bothered to contact me because of it.

    I think that this also fits in with Rowan's Wider Audience thread in a big way. By perpetuating the phallocentric models so common in fantasy role playing settings, we are cutting out a large segment of our potential audience, a segment which can bring a refreshingly new perspective to this game we love, and who can also be seriously good players.

    A short anecdotal aside to illustrate that last point
    In one of my more recent non-Birthright campaigns, the players consisted of a handful of old timers, a couple experienced newer players, and the wife of one of the old hands, a complete newbie to D&D. Well after a few low level adventures to let everybody establish their personas a bit, we held the vote for party leader, and everybody but the newbie immediately nominated her. Not as a sop to the newbie to make her feel important or as a practical joke, but because she was the obvious choice to everybody but herself. She played her character superbly. She didn't have all the stats and procedures down pat, so not really understanding them that well, she mostly ignored them and just played the character itself as a persona, and did it really well. She also demonstrated some excellent leadership skills and was good at managing the other characters' egos and foibles (being the Mom of two young boys probably helped her in this regard), and because she didn't know the standard "play book" so to speak, and therefore didn't know what the expected course of action was, she consistently thought up original solutions to problems, and she also turned out to have a really sharp tactical sense and so achieved some crushing victories where they weren't expected. Once she accepted our word that she really was deserving of the role, she stepped right into it and got even better at it, which improved the whole game for all of us in all sorts of ways.

    I think it would do the game as a whole, and our campaigns individually, a ton of good if we made a serious effort to redress the gender imbalance.

    Now, that being said, I want to also say that I am kind of disappointed in the responses disputing or marginalizing the problem. I guess we haven't come quite as far as I had thought when it comes to the question of empathy with regards to gender issues.
    Last edited by arpig2; 09-20-2014 at 02:09 PM.
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  3. #13
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arpig2 View Post
    That is a classic one, one I have fallen back on more than a few occasions, but it doesn't really solve the problem because it relegates women to a supporting role, and the least popular supporting role at that**.
    Being in a temple is not a supporting role. Look at the present Middle Eastern issues. Also, those who control the ideology can control the direction of a domain. The military/law holdings are just a way on enforcing the wishes of the dominant church.

    I can't speak for the OP, but that isn't how I read her intent at all. what I got out of it was to achieve over all gender parity, not universal gender parity
    You have misunderstood me. I am not saying universal gender parity. I am just saying that you can make cultures where male or female or otherwise can share the roles or be dominant. This is what I understood to be the discussion point of this thread. What I am saying is that there is many ways this exists and there is no need to treat each culture alike (hence, not universal).

    Not really, the differences between one domain and another are for the most part entirely cosmetic, even the differences between the cultures are not all that profound, being mostly a flavour thing rather than any major fundamental differences, especially when it comes to issues of gender parity.
    Given that the temples etc show that there is (rightfully) no one way to indeterprete the wishes of a god, just like there are various strains of Chritisianity/Islam/Buddhism etc, there should not be any expectation that all Anuireans have the same culture. Otherwise, Haelyn's word would always be the same and utlised the same way.

    That is exactly the sort of thing that I meant when I said thatthey needed some special back story to account for their gender. It is a perfect illustration of the issue the OP is raising.
    I don't understand your point here. Are you saying the Lamia is only in the position she is because she is a woman? Her biography in the wiki could easily be rewritten for a man.

    Sorontar
    Last edited by Sorontar; 09-20-2014 at 02:49 PM.
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  4. #14
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    Being in a temple is not a supporting role. Look at the present Middle Eastern issues. Also, those who control the ideology can control the direction of a domain. The military/law holdings are just a way on enforcing the wishes of the dominant church.
    True, but currently the basic setting has ruler/law combo domains routinely, but very few law/other combo's in Anuire - and in raw mechanics the priest domain is at a major disadvantage compared to the landed regent, as are guild and source.

    While men = soldiers and soldiers = leaders is an obvious medieval way of thinking, add in magic and character classes and the gender issue makes less sense - a L8 female fighter will pulverise a L1 male fighter even if playing with differentiated stats (which I haven't seen in a long time). So I'd like to see more female rulers too. I might leave, say, Boeruine as heavily preferring male rulers, while Avan was more egalitarian or some such rule, but I'd definitely skew towards equality.

    I note that bloodline inheritance is the only quasi-reliable way of maintaining bloodline strength - if a daughter inherits she may be the only child able to effectively rule a large domain, which would in turn indicate a need for a more equal society than a medieval game might otherwise expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    Given that the temples etc show that there is (rightfully) no one way to indeterprete the wishes of a god, just like there are various strains of Chritisianity/Islam/Buddhism etc, there should not be any expectation that all Anuireans have the same culture. Otherwise, Haelyn's word would always be the same and utlised the same way.
    Female gods will clearly undermine the male dominated faith approach common to the Abrahamic religions, its harder to say that women are inferior when some of them are gods.

  5. #15
    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    Being in a temple is not a supporting role. Look at the present Middle Eastern issues. Also, those who control the ideology can control the direction of a domain. The military/law holdings are just a way on enforcing the wishes of the dominant church.
    To the first point, no, sorry. The temple and guild domains are definitely supporting roles, the game is very much focused on the landed lord with his armies and fleets, which is why those positions are snapped up quickly in a new PBEM. That doesn't mean that there aren't fun and interesting ways to play those types of domains or that they can't rise to positions of great influence and power, it's just that they are the less popular domains, they don't have the sex appeal of the landed realms. You know how it is: It's good to be the king.

    It also limits the options of a female player wanting to play a female character.

    You have misunderstood me. I am not saying universal gender parity. I am just saying that you can make cultures where male or female or otherwise can share the roles or be dominant. This is what I understood to be the discussion point of this thread. What I am saying is that there is many ways this exists and there is no need to treat each culture alike (hence, not universal).
    If I misunderstood you, then it was probably because you said that you were talking about universal gender parity.
    Of course, what we are talking in this thread is about making each gender be universally represented, not giving them dominance in a particular area.
    Given that the temples etc show that there is (rightfully) no one way to indeterprete the wishes of a god, just like there are various strains of Chritisianity/Islam/Buddhism etc, there should not be any expectation that all Anuireans have the same culture. Otherwise, Haelyn's word would always be the same and utlised the same way.
    I'm sorry, but this just doesn't follow, there is a logical breakdown here. The fact of the matter is that as published there is very little variation between domains of the same culture, and only a little more between the different cultures.

    I don't understand your point here. Are you saying the Lamia is only in the position she is because she is a woman? Her biography in the wiki could easily be rewritten for a man.
    No, just the opposite in fact, she is only a woman because she is in the position she is. In order to justify a man being a realm ruler, they just have to state that he is, but in order to justify a woman in that position, she has to be the Lamia, or have some other special back story to explain how a woman came to be in power.

    Now, there is nothing wrong with having special back stories, in fact the more the merrier, the problem is that they are only needed for female characters. This is a result of the very male dominated milieu that has been created.

    Further, I will grant you that the Birthright audience, like the wider D&D audience, is predominantly male, even overwhelmingly so, and that is the reason for the preponderance of male characters and NPCs, to appeal to the main target audience, but times have changed, and with the popularity of WoW and other similar online games, more and more women are gravitating towards the more classical forms of role playing (i.e. pen and paper games), and I think our particular little niche of that hobby could do with a few more recruits, especially ones that will bring new and interesting perspectives to the game.

    Also, as the father of a very bright and talented daughter, I very much dislike supporting or promoting patriarchal stereotypes and gender-biased thinking.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    its harder to say that women are inferior when some of them are gods.
    Well you can say it easily enough, I just wouldn't advise doing so too loudly.
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  7. #17
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Call Lass View Post
    One thing I've noticed when reading the Birthright materials is that, taking its cues from historical Europe, it's a very male-dominated place. Most of the heroes, villains, and NPC regents are male, for example.
    I would disagree that Cerilia has the same male-dominated society as Earth. There are a significant number of female leaders in all aspects of society, including guilds, temples, source holdings, and land regents.

    Take the Southern Coast for example, 3 of 7 land regents are female and of the 4 male regents one is the Spider, and at least two of the remaining 3 have female heirs (Lasica Diem and Alliene Aglondier). While that isn't necessarily the same across all the regions (e.g. the Heartlands) there are a large number of female regents, and important figures like the heir to Avanil, the largest of Anuire's kingdoms are female (Aubrae Avan).

    It's also important to note that female regents have taken power even though they have male siblings (e.g. Marlae Roseone who has a younger brother). That would mean there is no hereditary right for the eldest male to rule, but rather the eldest child.

    That said there is nothing wrong with changing a few of the NPC genders around if you want to fit your view of the setting.

    I did go and look through the setting to see who could possible be changed, but really there are a lot of female leaders out there.

    The south coast has 3 male, 3 female + the spider.
    The west cost has 2 male, 2 female + Rhoubhe
    The Heartlands has 7 male, 1 female
    The Northern Marches has 4 males, 2 female + The Gorgon + 1 uncontrolled. One the male rulers is also controlled by a female guilder (Cariele)
    The Eastern Marches has 2 male, 2 female + the Chimaera

    So really the only major imbalance is in the Heartlands.

    (Oh, and also I'm going to assume greater presence of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender NPCs in the world, something which wasn't addressed much if at all back in the TSR days.)
    Agreed. A few possibilities that have come up in my campaigns over the years (and I've had a number of gay and lesbian players so had to modify NPCs to suit them) are;
    Eriene Mirelelen (bisexual)
    Guilder Kalien (bisexual)
    Marlae Roesone (lesbian)
    The Sword Mage (transgender... possibly, we never did clarify for certain)
    Danita Kusor (lesbian, but not her alter-ego the Chimaera... so it's a bit complicated with her).
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  8. #18
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raesene Andu View Post
    The south coast has 3 male, 3 female + the spider.
    The west cost has 2 male, 2 female + Rhoubhe
    The Heartlands has 7 male, 1 female
    The Northern Marches has 4 males, 2 female + The Gorgon + 1 uncontrolled. One the male rulers is also controlled by a female guilder (Cariele)
    The Eastern Marches has 2 male, 2 female + the Chimaera

    So really the only major imbalance is in the Heartlands.
    Hmm, that's better than I expected - but the heartlands does stick out as you say. I'm now wondering how the other nations do:

    Rjurik:
    Taelshore: 1 (the siren) of 5 is female
    Northlands: 2 of 4 are female (including the white witch and scarlet baron)
    Wild Lands: 2 of 6 are female including Lluabriaght (f) Urga-Zai and Khurin Azur (m).
    Counting Anneke of the Giantdowns is possibly a strech.

    Khinasi:
    Plains states: 1 of 7 is female, although the Red Kings are unclear and 1 male is the Sphinx.
    Zhainge Valley: 0 of 4 (excluding Basilisk) are female, one male is undead(?), 1 is sidhe
    The Drocandragh: 2 of 6 (including the lamia) are female, if you count Mour el-sirad then there is another male realm, 1 male realm is Orog, 1 sidhe.
    island States: 1 of 7 is female, males include the serpent, magian, and minotaur.


    The Brecht:
    Western Reaches 0 of 4 are female.
    Western Basin 2 of 5 are female, 1 female is Sidhe, the other is arguably an ehrshegh, 2 males are awnies.
    Eastern Basin 2 of 5 are female including the Banshegh, the other isn;t human either being a halfling. 1 could make a case for Muden being 2 realms, 1 ruled by a woman.
    Overlook 2 of 8 are female including the Hag, 1 male is Karamhul, 1 is a half-sidhe, 1 is an Awnie.

    The Vos
    Playable:0 of 4 are female, although 1 of the 3 rulers of Yeninskiy is female.
    NPC: 1 of 5 is female.
    Non-human and feral: 0 of 4 is female.

    hopefully not too many errors in a quick count, but to my amazement, Anuire emerges as a bastion of equality, I had assumed Brechtur and possibly the Khinasi would do better, but the guilds don't officially rule and despite a focus on wizardry and wit the Khinasi seem very male-dominated. The Vos don't surprise me, but the Rjurik do as I'd assumed they wouldn't be much better than the Vos.

    Making monsters and other foes male is pretty normal (if often very well subverted) which would always skew the results of a crude count like the one above but we definitely need some more "normal" rulers to be female.

  9. #19

    Are the responses here more a reflection of our own interpretations and biases?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raesene Andu View Post
    I would disagree that Cerilia has the same male-dominated society as Earth. There are a significant number of female leaders in all aspects of society, including guilds, temples, source holdings, and land regents.

    Take the Southern Coast for example, 3 of 7 land regents are female and of the 4 male regents one is the Spider, and at least two of the remaining 3 have female heirs (Lasica Diem and Alliene Aglondier). While that isn't necessarily the same across all the regions (e.g. the Heartlands) there are a large number of female regents, and important figures like the heir to Avanil, the largest of Anuire's kingdoms are female (Aubrae Avan).

    It's also important to note that female regents have taken power even though they have male siblings (e.g. Marlae Roseone who has a younger brother). That would mean there is no hereditary right for the eldest male to rule, but rather the eldest child.

    That said there is nothing wrong with changing a few of the NPC genders around if you want to fit your view of the setting.
    After considering the sum total of this thread, I must agree with the above more than any other poster/perspective.

    Consider that the White Witch is female, and there is no apology made for it in the descriptions/history of her (that I recall). Equally Lluabraight is an elven realm run by a powerful Queen, and I don't recall any 'apologetic' explanation for her rulership. And there is the worship of Kriesha totally female dominated religion...

    It is a fantasy setting, it can be whatever you make of it, based on your own biases and wants. It exists the way you interpret it to be... therefore if you project a male dominated society, and minimalize the female personalities, the only one you have to blame for this setting is yourself.

    If you want to compare the Birthright setting to reality... either a historical one in Earth's past, or the current one. Then the Birthright setting is overwhelmingly more gender neutral than our world, IMO.

    Lets consider the current reality. All the powerful world nations (Russia, China, America, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.) are heavily slanted to favor Male authority, and at best, women are treated equally, at worst women are treated as possessions or second class citizens.

    Consider religions, the same can be said there as well. When was the last time there was a woman Pope, a woman Prophet?

    So lets not bash the Birthright setting out of hand, it is as progressive as the DM running it and the players playing it. As a setting (which was created a GENERATION ago, no less) it is far more progressive than our world, past or present.
    The better part of valor is discretion

  10. #20
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    Something noted elsewhere: elven lands have Queens or Princes, but not Kings. I could be wrong, but I thought a majority of elven lands had female rulers, I haven't checked. I've usually played them as more matrilinear societies.

    I am surprised by the numbers above, I would have suspected more women rulers among the Brecht, but the Anuirean numbers are a pleasant surprise.

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