Gender Parity in Birthright

[Sorontar]

As Thelandrin said, we want no name calling from anyone. This thread is not a debate about the debate.[1] If people do not give constructive input, their posts will be deleted.
If you disagree with someone else, say why and support your argument with relevant examples and evidence.

So let us talk about the topic, not each other.

Sorontar

[1] Yes, it can be a debate about the topic, but not about how we are debating it.

[Rowan]

I think that now would be a great time for people to stop discussing each other and either get back to the thread topic or abandon it entirely.

I think most of us have been wanting to do just that, with no further aspersions cast against us. I'd prefer that those of us who wish to have a conversation continue to do so, and ignore those who ignore our posts and accuse us of not wanting to talk about the topic, even as we're doing exactly that.

We can actually make a move towards parity with undermining canon, canon is in most cases only a summary of a domain, many have just 1 or 2 page write-up's. So there is nothing to stop us writing a female character who is a powerful lieutenant or even the power behind the throne - many of the PS's introduced very substantial characters and often the ruler was not a dominant as the regional write-up suggested. Since at least Anuire is clearly more equal than the historical sources, I don't think that additions like that would undermine canon.

Actually, as I've said previously, I think there's strong implication in the canon that there is no strong preference in most realms for male primogeniture. At worst, the default situation seems semi-salic. At best, absolute primogeniture (not respecting sex or birth order), dependent mostly on special designation of the heir (usually by the prior ruler), though perhaps with default guidance in some direction if no heir was clearly designated, or if challenges arise to such.

I find that inheritance laws and challenges come up quite often in games, and it can be a very interesting topic of discussion.

It's interesting, also, to compare Roman inheritance law (which was by no means absolute and required a far greater degree of meritocracy than later medieval primogeniture), given the Roman allusions of Anuire (and how this would have influenced the one-time vassal states in Rjurik, Brechtur, and Khinasi). In fact, the other former subject cultures may hold truer to those older Anuirean/Roman influences (if they paralleled the real world Roman Republic more) than Anuire has.

Also, and possibly it is a silly point, but I don't recall a wiki artiicle or thread on how (and why) BR has diverged from history, in-play if we draw on history we almost inevitably draw on male-dominated sources so a "this is what's been done and how we make it work" type article would be interesting and possibly useful in play for those less confident in world building (although I grant that most BR DM's are likely fairly experienced due to the setting's age).

This is what I was getting at. We need story depth for this, and I think there's a lot to explore here. Also, this is where we help to emphasize the "role" play over "roll" play. That desire for roleplay emphasis is yet another reason that I think superficial selection of gender parity is not enough--and is, in itself, a form of pandering that hides a more subtle sexism.

I think a very strong case can be made for why women would "matter more" in Birthright than in the real world. Whereas in our real history, male rulership is often played out through dominance exerted through power, violence, competition, etc, which easily explains the subjugation of women (and others), in Birthright things don't favor the men so much. Divine bloodlines can be an equalizer (especially if you make them matter even more in your game, which I tend to).

In Birthright, the bloodline that women carry matters a great deal to the power of the bloodline of the dynasty. Not so in the real world, where women were used primarily to assert noble pedigrees and form alliances, but weren't necessarily perceived as inherently lending strength to the dynasty.

So in Birthright, there is a natural favor built in for any individual who carries a strong bloodline. This could easily give rise to more female regents, even whole institutional roles for women based on this power and privilege. More on those roles later.

Also, I see women valued even more in the formation of families (which, being the primary purpose of marriage, impacts marriage in-game, as well). More on that later, too.

And, of course, we have the ideas specifically proposed earlier to highlight the role of women in some races and cultures, and even in some classes (sorcerers, priestesses).

To strengthen any story connections, we can also consider house rules or include them in rules updates for conversion to newer systems. For instance, the power of non-realm-holders was bemoaned as discrediting the value of having female regents of non-landed domains; this can be corrected, at least to some degree. Also, I've always been interested in seeing how the "power behind the throne" can be reflected better in game mechanics, and not just role-play manipulation. There's also perhaps more possibility for co-rulership, with shared investiture and regency.

And the whole topic I touched on of strengthening the aspects of the game that appeal most to female players (which I proposed were the team-playing and interaction, diplomacy and alliance, more tangible rewards for goals other than conquest and domination, and role-play opportunities like tournaments and festivals and suchlike).

[rugor]

And in reply to Rowan, and those posts just above his, what we are talking about is the DM and players choosing to make the setting their own.

I'm sorry I can't see the issue more clearly, as it obviously bothers some, and my replies are clearly not getting the message across I am trying to put forth.

Whatever limitations are being put on a woman to play any role in the game are likely being imposed by those that are playing the game with them.

If there is a criticism about the game itself, as it was written a couple decades back, all we can do is point to Roesone, Medeore, Talinie, and the other realms which are indeed run by women regents... and there are opportunities for others as well, why can't Aubrae Avan become the first woman regent in Avanil? A historic change, would make for a great story, Anuire's own Queen Elizabeth type of campaign.

Lasica Diem is the only heir to Diemed, she to can become a ruling regent as well as the most powerful purveyor of Magic in the region.

Soraene Alam can become the regent of Alamie, another powerful politician and purveyor of Magic.

All of Anuire can become awash in this next generation, of women regents, from Roesone to Avanil, Diemed to Alamie, Talinie to Arenwe... the realms of Boeruine and Ghoere in their backwards war-minded male dominated societies can be the minority (and perhaps the enemy that joins these other realms together) in the game.

But that is all up to those who play the game... and most importantly, how the DM presents the game... its about your ability to communicate what you want to do, and where the game is going to go.... its YOU... the DM... the PLAYERS... that make Birthright or ANY RPG game what it is... and they fail, and women are turned off by them because of what YOU present to them... or DON'T present to them.

[DevinParker]

I agree that there seems to be far less reason for male dominance in Cerilia than historical Earth; this, bloodlines, and the presence of magic as an equalizer has given me plenty of reason to have fun casting my NPCs with a variety of genders, regardless of profession or position.

As arpig2 mentioned, I've decided to make my Cerilian Elves matriarchal and matrilineal (as I usually do in my fantasy games with Elves, anyway). I adopted the Uvandir from "Wicked Fantasy" for my Dwarves, and as written, they don't really have much concept of gender; however, I decided that there are many who choose what outsiders would define as a feminine appearance because they felt it suited their individual expression.

I changed some of the written NPCs in the setting books from male to female for my Roesone campaign; for example, I changed Royal Captain Tael Brosuine to a female, imagining her looking like Daryl Hannah's character Elle Driver from "Kill Bill."

Finally, when randomly generating NPCs, I use a number of tables I've created to describe them. The chance for them to be male or female is equal, and based on some of the descriptors I've generated, I've interpreted some of them to be homosexual, transgender, asexual, etc.

In my current campaign, the PCs were rather surprised to learn that the grubby Goblin Magician they've been following around was female - they couldn't tell from her appearance, not being Goblins, themselves. They're going to be even more surprised when they find out that she's considered a beauty among her kind! Both of these things were aspects I generated randomly (I also use Comeliness for my NPCs), and I think doing things that way has added to the game's story considerably.

[Magian]

In my experience this is a non-issue. Anyone in RP can choose to make a character how they like. I haven't run into anyone saying they can't be of one gender or another nor of one sexual orientation or identity or another in any games I've ever played. Anyone who plays RP asks the DM / GM if they can play such and such. That is the only place that I foresee any potential problem, that being the response of the DM.

If we assume that we are all adults, then that is like saying we are giving each other the benefit of the doubt. Therefore we should also be able to trust in each other's judgement especially a DM judgment call. Unless we have cases of DMs or players blocking efforts of the OP I don't see a problem. To assume something else is something that I argue is yet to be established.

I didn't see anything from the posts of those who replied that justified the OP's response. Unless we aren't free to voice our opinion. I think we have an established understanding that that isn't the case.

My direct reply to the OP. I don't care. If my players want to play something that changes a current character, that is usually what is always done. Players choose their own way to play. Birthright fans tend to be Game of Thrones fans. There are gender differences and sexual orientation differences there and I have no issues with it nor anyone else that I've spoken to about it. Therefore if you want to do it, go for it. I'm sure it would bring more depth and character to your campaign.

As far as an issue of attracting new players I don't see it as an issue if we clarify up front that you can make your character however you want. As for changing the setting, who cares, let people do what they want it is their game. We can learn a lot from a new perspective on games in our favorite setting.

One thing I won't accept is an implication that we are jerks and don't include differences among us. Most of us developed this gaming hobby as a result of jerks in our own social circumstances and to be equated with those whom oppressed us in our youth won't get you anywhere closer to the truth. You are barking up the wrong tree. This isn't a gamergate sort of thing here where there are a bunch of psychotic trolls (who troll everyone) here. This was an intelligent discussion with different opinions. If we can't have those, then what is the point of anything any more?

[arpig2]

I don't care.

That much is obvious.

[Lord_Johnny]

Queen Liliene Swordwraith
Duchess Eriene Mierelen
Duchess Laela Flaertas
Baroness Fhiele Dhoesone
Duchess Eluvie Cariele
Mhaellie Bireon
Baroness Marlae Rosoene
Medhlorie Haensen
Hermedhie
Mhistacai
Sarae Sommerlin
Queen Isaelie
Mhaire Cwllmie

I think the OP hasn't perused Ruins of Empire sufficiently. Its loaded with female rulers.

Okay, so I'll be the first to admit that I haven't read the whole thread, because I got to this point (and a few comments after) and honestly Arentak hit the nail on the head. There ARE a lot of women that are regents. Yes, there are more male regents, but modern sensibilities aside, there just wouldn't have been a great many regents of a female nature.

Not because women couldn't handle the mental necessities, but because of the more physical demands placed on regents both historically and game wise. I point to the aspects of where regents are expected to do a lot of adventuring, in a world where magic is very limited, then most things are physical. As such, the limitations of the female body come to the fore, when trying to fight for extended periods, especially in low tech societies, then many female regents wouldn't be the norm.

Again, this is taking a realistic look at things, with true limitations being applied to a game. Remember it's a game, and if you want to change things, then make a GM call. It's a game. Make it fun.

[Magian]

I think the implication of the game is that in the fantasy setting women are able to do anything even physical challenges as well as men. That is why sex doesn't have a + or - to attributes. That is just standard D&D. So in a natural environment a parity of sexes is viable given these assumptions.

As said previously we are free to determine our own games. I have yet to see a case where a DM was bigoted towards a player regarding such issues. Until that happens, it is a non-issue.

I said before I don't care about this more so in the respect of character sexual identity. Again this is personal preference for a game. If you want to do it go ahead no one is stopping you. If you feel the need to play out such dimensions with your characters, then that is fine that is your game to explore how you like. I don't care because I don't get into my character's sexuality in gaming. I don't care to get into other character's sexuality in games either. It is none of my business. If I wanted to explore that, then I would, but I don't have to and I am not wrong or bigoted or ignorant for that as some would infer.

What this thread is about is imposing an ideology on our gaming and attempting to shame us for not being persuaded by that ideology. The OP asked for help. When they got it they shamed those who helped them and left the conversation. I mean how much time was invested by these people to run the numbers for that person? They wanted a 50/50 ratio and the numbers were provided in order to establish how the game is setup up in regards to that ratio. That would have been the first step in reaching a solution for the OP. Instead the OP said that these people who looked into the game for them were in some way oppressing them by merely looking into it with inquisitive minds. I'm sorry but that isn't looking for Gender Parity in Birthright it is an attempt at establishing an ideological presence.

[Mirviriam]

... a realistic look at things, with true limitations ...

...definitely not a realistic look.

Logically speaking - just because there aren't more - doesn't mean they aren't capable of it.

That's bad science to make that claim, as in the real world we call that correlation & often cite that it is not the same as causation.

Oh yea...

I am back. Punks.

-Mirv

[Mirviriam]

Oh & btw ... I was examining a way to show case worlds and implement rules for birthright back when I left. I didn't have an online repository - so the info is gone, minus some 60 pages of scribbling and horrible php code.

I was coming back to check & see if the other two guys ever got anywhere in their efforts to make online games to resemble table top BRCS.

If someone did make one ... well, that's a good place to start for show casing an adjusted game or home brew. I know when I left, myself and the other two were working on creating an interface for our respective games where people could type in the stats/descriptions of realms/regents/npc etc. I don't have a live ruby on rails server, but from what I studied this last summer it seems like a perfect utility.

If I write the entry system to a database, it shouldn't be too hard for me to turn around and display the data back to you guys. I'm a bit fuzzy on the user credentials section & my database would probably need some overhauls as time goes on - but it could work better than you designing & sharing pdf's all over - as the data could then be feed to PBEM's or automated PBEM's.

The easiest way I envision it is just taking the default from 2nd edition off the old java tool (which I would need someone to post to me again) & once my data entry tool is up - people punch in the stats for it. Then other's access their own copy of the original and begin tweaking. There's ways to pick and choose the parts you want from other people too.

TL;DR:

I won't rewrite Birthright for you, but I could help by putting up some webpages to help you guys collaborate on it & show it on the internet. I'd really like to know someone would try using it before I put aside time from my leather business to do this though!

EDIT: BirMailer is still alive! updated 8/2015: http://sourceforge.net/projects/birmail/