(DnD 5e) Birthright Conversion

[mortenhelles]

I am actually in the process of making such a (direct) D&D 5e conversion for the Birthright Rulebook, page-by-page, with plenty of optional variants.

If anyone can arrange for a D&D 5e section to be made on the Downloads page then I'd be happy put my conversion proposal there. Its currently 14 pages and has conversion rules for races, classes, statecraft skills, equipment and gods.

[mortenhelles]

With help from Arius, the Site Administrator, there now is a D&D 5e Conversion section on the Download page, and I have added my conversion proposal there.

I'll keep monitoring this thread and update the conversion rules with good/better ideas and variants as suggested by you guys.

Have fun, and looking forward to your feedback!

[Fizz]

All wizards are rare in BR, we'd need 1 wizard per realm, that's all. And I don't see how it impacts the flavour of the setting at all

So would you be ok if your standard party was a group of 4 dwarven wizards?

- the Karamhul (and Halflings following the same logic) go from disadvantaged compared to the other races to equal, that's all. You could argue that it brings in the option to have much more Nordic-type Dwerger for some Karamhul realms but I don't see a problem in that.

That presumes that they are disadvantaged, and i don't think they are. Elves can't priests, dwarves can't be wizards. Humans can only be wizards if blooded, but they don't have other racial benefits of the others. So i don't see an issue here.

Not really, but I had the misfortune of getting into arguments with some of them back in the day and losing, then checking to source material and finding out some of Tolkein use of artistic licence. I recommend the Norse stuff to anyone who wants to use Karamhul in BR, you'll never see them in the same light again.

Well, they're not portrayed as magical in the Lord of the Rings movies. And we all know that is the definitive version. *ducks and hides*.

Interesting, we have "traditional" magic from the sidhe and copied by goblins and humans, Karamhul magic could then be a completely different tradition, same effect (under a KISS approach) but very different theme.

Yes, that's what i liked (and still like) about the Vikings book version. The runecasting mechanic was so simple- simpler than standard spellcasting in fact. No levels, no memorization, just simple-defined runes with simple effects (and nothing ever flashy, which helped too).

Indeed, I'd suggest focusing on what BR changed to 2e and mimicking such changes to 5e though, rather than assuming that 2e standard relics also had to be re-imported, of course then we get the question of what was standard and what was non-standard.

That's where it gets tricky. Where does one draw the line? Just because it's a holdover, it doesn't mean it's not relevant.

Given the scarcity of magic in Birthright, and that humans too could not be wizards unless blooded, it makes perfect sense that dwarves should not be- this is not just a dwarf restriction.

So don't think of it as a holdover from 2nd Ed. It's actually a new restriction (per Birthright) upon all the races, one which dwarves happened to have already had.

I'm sure at some point we'll have some threads related directly to this topic where everyone will weigh in. I tend to side with Sorontar on this particular topic. But i look forward to the discussion.

-Fizz

[mortenhelles]

My five cents regarding Dwarves and arcane magic:

Direct conversion: Dwarves cannot be wizards. The original Birthright rulebook is pretty clear on this.

As a variant, allow dwarves to use rune magic. Unfortunately, there is no system for this in the Birthright rulebook(s), so the DM will either have to convert another system, or make up his own. Can the simple rune system in Vikings be summarized in a few words?

[Fizz]

As a variant, allow dwarves to use rune magic. Unfortunately, there is no system for this in the Birthright rulebook(s), so the DM will either have to convert another system, or make up his own. Can the simple rune system in Vikings be summarized in a few words?

Not really, mainly because you've got about two dozen rune descriptions and effects to write up. These are not just borrowed spells.

That said, i don't think such an alternative would make sense to include. It might be best to do a Core book first (the standard conversion), and then maybe a book of alternative rules as a second book. Any alternative that can't be stated in a line or two probably doesn't belong in the Core book.

I base this off of how the 3E conversion was done.

-Fizz

[AndrewTall]

So would you be ok if your standard party was a group of 4 dwarven wizards?

the same as if they were 4 human wizards, or 4 sidhe wizards - that it was non thematic and bizarrely unbalanced, you could however do a PBeM along that lines if you wanted to structure it that way.

That presumes that they are disadvantaged, and i don't think they are. Elves can't priests, dwarves can't be wizards. Humans can only be wizards if blooded, but they don't have other racial benefits of the others. So i don't see an issue here.

The Sidhe can't be priests because all the priests in the setting follow specific gods and the sidhe don't have gods, as has been noted the lack of healing magic is a major problem from a game-play perspective. Humans have their own racial benefits, not least of which is the vast numerical advantage over all others outside of Vosgaard giving them very significant diplomatic boosts.

That's where it gets tricky. Where does one draw the line? Just because it's a holdover, it doesn't mean it's not relevant.

To me the holdover would have to add something to game play, or make the race more distinct, in this case the retention is contrary to the specific elemental characteristics added to the race, more it weakens an already weakened race (in a diplomatic game with medieval mindset the minority alien is always at a disadvantage, while the low birth-rate is crippling if played properly). Given that clerical domains have a degree of competition with wizardly ones permitting the Karamhul magic gives them the possibility of a foothold in neighbouring realms and expands their ability to interact peaceably (in part this depends on how wizards and priests interact in your version of BR).

So don't think of it as a holdover from 2nd Ed. It's actually a new restriction (per Birthright) upon all the races, one which dwarves happened to have already had.

Except that Karamhul are also banned from being magicians, they are left completely unchanged from base 2e, whereas others are merely banned from true magic (barring the sidhe and blooded), as a magician has to hit L5 to be impacted and even realm-level wizards don't all make L5 the impact on humans is pretty trivial in practice, the reduction in numbers is much more distinct.

I'm sure at some point we'll have some threads related directly to this topic where everyone will weigh in. I tend to side with Sorontar on this particular topic. But i look forward to the discussion.

-Fizz

To each their own of course, but I see a conversion as a chance to make a much more interesting Karamhul "norm" that is more playable as a realm. Particularly for BR where the history tends to go "deep" I'd push for Karamhul to have more dwerger-like characteristics than be the somewhat twee tolkein clones seen in every other setting (barring dark-sun), although admittedly I say that as a guy who made shadow-world provinces and realms for players to interact with

[Fizz]

... they are left completely unchanged from base 2e,

Not quite true. They have some unique qualities from the standard 2nd Ed version: greater and different ability modifiers, resistance to bludgeoning, ability to carry heavy loads, improved infravision. So they are a good deal tougher than the 2nd ed standard 2nd ed dwarf.

Except that Karamhul are also banned from being magicians, ... whereas others are merely banned from true magic (barring the sidhe and blooded),

It feels a bit weird to me, but i can see your point here, since Lesser Magic does not require a bloodline. And i have no issue with halfling or goblin magicians.

I always thought of it as a spectrum- on one end are the elves, creatures of nature and thus naturally tied to mebhaighl. On the opposite end are the entirely nonmagical dwarves- mebhaighl just does not flow through them easily.

To each their own of course, but I see a conversion as a chance to make a much more interesting Karamhul "norm" that is more playable as a realm. Particularly for BR where the history tends to go "deep" I'd push for Karamhul to have more dwerger-like characteristics than be the somewhat twee tolkein clones seen in every other setting (barring dark-sun),

So are you more worried about the Karamhul on a domain/realm level? I see. That explains some of our differences. I've primarily been speaking from the standpoint of a standard gaming party. Maybe this partly explains why humans have come to dominate the continent.

I agree with you in some respects. I think we could expand on their elemental nature more because they are already described as such.

although admittedly I say that as a guy who made shadow-world provinces and realms for players to interact with

That sounds really fun. Did you ever try an interaction of a Cerilian realm and Shadow World realm that "overlapped" the same geography? I can see much opportunity for... shenanigans. Heh.

-Fizz

[AndrewTall]

Not quite true. They have some unique qualities from the standard 2nd Ed version: greater and different ability modifiers, resistance to bludgeoning, ability to carry heavy loads, improved infravision. So they are a good deal tougher than the 2nd ed standard 2nd ed dwarf.

Which was my (poorly put) point - the "no wizardry" bit is unchanged, but other changes push them towards a more elemental/tough nature. Since I merge all magic to a degree (the source is basically nature, i.e. mebhaighl, or from the shadow world, i.e. awnmebhaighl) and remove the gods (not priests, just the meddling gods, I wanted priests to have politics) I couldn't get Karamhul to be elemental (i.e. tied to mebhaighl) but "non-magical". Possibly (a few) step(s) too far for some.

So are you more worried about the Karamhul on a domain/realm level? I see. That explains some of our differences. I've primarily been speaking from the standpoint of a standard gaming party. Maybe this partly explains why humans have come to dominate the continent.

Very much so, as I've played more PBeM than Tabletop BR The breeding point is the real power-issue, but that affects backstory more than PBeM game-play. Partly it is also flavour, in that I have shifted towards the dwerger for at least some of the Karamhul.

That sounds really fun. Did you ever try an interaction of a Cerilian realm and Shadow World realm that "overlapped" the same geography? I can see much opportunity for... shenanigans. Heh.-Fizz

I added a few dozen subterranean provinces, and a hundred or so shadow world provinces. Those varied between: no mirror province reachable; wild (shifting chaos which could be shaped by a strong mind); the classic undead mirror; shadow (realms dominated by evil overlords); and spirit provinces ("good" equivalents of shadow provinces, mainly sidhe, note good does not equal safe). Sometimes a Cerilian province linked to more than 1 shadow province but mostly they directly mirrored 1:1. By mainly mirroring provinces I was spared the need to draft a map which saved a lot of work

Basically it would have been possible for a small realm to expand down or up rather than merely sideways - effectively a 3D map of the area. Since many of the provinces were easter eggs (of good and bad kinds) they could have had a major impact on game-play if people explored.

I had a realm that wanted to be transported to Cerilia (not easy), a demon trying to steal provinces from Cerilia (would have required a PC to display recklessness to the point of insanity so perhaps 50:50), some domains seeking allies to help fight the other spirit, some provinces of kidnappees to be rescued as an instant population boost, some allies/foes, some interesting travel routes, etc.

Then I through in some oddities like provinces which had unusual time zones (i.e. this province time flows at 1 Cerilian action per year in province, this province has fast time of 1 season per Cerilian action), this province contests all source holdings each season with +6 on the roll, this province allows a single realm spell to be cast for 0 RP once during summer, but cannot be tapped during winter, etc. The oddities might have been trouble to remember though so I planned to use those mainly for NPCs or give them effects that players could track.

[Duck Call Lass]

As it turns out, I was working on my own conversion docs for Birthright to 5e, so I thought I'd share those -- both to get some feedback and to feed my own ideas into the mix here.

Here is my first draft of my Birthright conversion to 5e D&D.

Birthright 5e D&D Conversion Document

[Delazar]

How to "organize" such an effort? do we just randomy post our ideas, and make a poll? How did you guys went about creating the 3rd ed conversion?