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  1. #41
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    That depends on what you mean by "making sense". Iirc, in the original Birthright book, dwarves are described as being completely non-magical, so it's not just a 2nd Ed thing, but the very nature of dwarves in the setting.-Fizz
    Completely non magical beings who can subsist on eating earth alone, are unusually dense, cold-skinned, etc - I see them as less into "showy" magic than the sidhe, but still elemental in nature, but earth/fire as opposed to the sidhe (water/air and possibly earth) or the giants (earthen ties).

    The reference on page 5 of the rulebook is "Cerilian dwarves are nonmagical and never use wizard magic. They gain the standard saving throw modifiers allowed to dwarves..."

    So they are simply modelling off the base 2e dwarf in my view.

    Admittedly I see the karamhul as "under-done" in BR, the sidhe and halflings got a more bespoke treatment, whereas the karamhul, like the giants are merely touched by elemental origin.

    I would see them as ideally moving away from clerical magic towards something analogous to druidic power albeit likely based on ancestor worship and less focused on untouched nature. I saw Moradin as a somewhat lazy direct import and think that removing an incarnate deity from the Karamhul would fit better with the move towards a sidhe-like spirit nature and also reduce diplomatic tensions with the Anuirean priesthoods easing interactions.

    I confess to using the warforged rules from Eberron to reflect animate elemental spirits/ancestors given form through skill, and generally pushing them away from "short humans" towards something more distinct - with many human races added to BR, having "funny-looking human" races made little sense to me.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Completely non magical beings who can subsist on eating earth alone,
    I don't recall such a reference to their diet. Where is that?

    are unusually dense, cold-skinned, etc - I see them as less into "showy" magic than the sidhe, but still elemental in nature, but earth/fire as opposed to the sidhe (water/air and possibly earth) or the giants (earthen ties).
    Yeah I can certainly see them having an elemental subtype, but i don't think that makes them magical. In the context of Birthright, creatures like varsks and griffons are not considered magical. I see the Karamhul in the same light.

    The reference on page 5 of the rulebook is "Cerilian dwarves are nonmagical and never use wizard magic. They gain the standard saving throw modifiers allowed to dwarves..."
    Well there ya go. Non-magical.

    I agree they have a resemblance to the standard 2nd Ed dwarf and that was certainly the starting point. But then the basis for the 2nd ed dwarf ultimately goes back to Tolkien, and i don't think Tolkien considered his dwarves to be magical.

    I would see them as ideally moving away from clerical magic towards something analogous to druidic power albeit likely based on ancestor worship and less focused on untouched nature.
    I understand what you're getting at- you want them to be more than short warriors. I get that. But that may be best done culturally.

    I have always liked the idea of dwarven magic being based on runes. I actually tried this using the 2nd Ed Vikings handbook. It was rather fun actually. It gave the dwarves their own magic source (arcane because it used mebhaighl, but divine because the knowledge came from Moradin). So this gave the dwaves a magical side without them becoming spellcasters or cleric variants.

    I confess to using the warforged rules from Eberron to reflect animate elemental spirits/ancestors given form through skill, and generally pushing them away from "short humans" towards something more distinct - with many human races added to BR, having "funny-looking human" races made little sense to me.
    I know squat-all about Eberron so i can't comment on that. But I actually liked how they handled dwarves in 2nd Ed Birthright. They were more unique than the standard dwarves of 2nd ed, but i agree the overhaul wasn't as dramatic as what they did for elves.


    -Fizz

  3. #43
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I don't recall such a reference to their diet. Where is that?
    Page 10 Baruk-Azhik, 3rd para under "the dwarven diet", I can't recall if it is in the main rulebook but given the limited write-up at the start suspect on reflection that the answer is "not", alas for age, you forget where the heck you read stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Well there ya go. Non-magical.
    No, they are merely noted as not casting wizardly magic - the "non-magical" is specifically tied to that 2e staple limitation for non-humans (except elves), rather than being a generic term prohibiting them from any magic. They still have clerical magic and elemental aspects which directly contradicts a wider interpretation of the term, so unless you are also planning to enforce level limits and bans on dual-classing I'm unsure why you'd keep the no-wizards 2e relic, particularly as karamhul are otherwise at least as magical than humans and in my view far more so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I agree they have a resemblance to the standard 2nd Ed dwarf and that was certainly the starting point. But then the basis for the 2nd ed dwarf ultimately goes back to Tolkien, and i don't think Tolkien considered his dwarves to be magical.
    He didn't have them non-magical either, and if you look at the myths Tolkein drew on Dwerger and so on are routinely described as having magical powers. I wonder sometimes if the tolkein import didn't say "only human and elven wizards" because Gygax saw Gandalf and his brethren as human - something some Tolkeinites would vehemently argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I understand what you're getting at- you want them to be more than short warriors. I get that. But that may be best done culturally.
    The culture split is already done between humans, making it less effective between species (ideas for goblins welcome, I never had many ideas for their kind). If you want to differentiate Karamhul from the human tribes as other than them being "short grumpy people" you need something more than a superficial culture twist. I add spirit/elemental aspects to provide a mid-point to the sidhe, take them away from a direct competition with humans for living space, to me the culture should spring from actual differences, not just be a few habits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I have always liked the idea of dwarven magic being based on runes. I actually tried this using the 2nd Ed Vikings handbook. It was rather fun actually. It gave the dwarves their own magic source (arcane because it used mebhaighl, but divine because the knowledge came from Moradin). So this gave the dwaves a magical side without them becoming spellcasters or cleric variants.
    To me anyone who casts a spell - wizard, priest, runecaster, or psionicist is a spell-caster, the rest is just details. I toyed with various options before settling for spell-casters drawing power either from the natural world (mebhiaghl) or the Spiritworld (mainly clerical but some wizardly magic). I didn't want to have all-singing-all-dancing priestly casters given their other class and cultural benefits so I needed a split but in practice I let wizards draw on both sources of power to balance them a little and reflect my adjustments to the gods (making them myths only).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    I know squat-all about Eberron so i can't comment on that. But I actually liked how they handled dwarves in 2nd Ed Birthright. They were more unique than the standard dwarves of 2nd ed, but i agree the overhaul wasn't as dramatic as what they did for elves. -Fizz
    I didn't find much use for Eberron as a setting, but two of their races were interesting to me, the shifters and the warforged. The shifters (descendents of lycanthropes) I used less as a race than as specialist warriors for the Rjurik and Vos (they can gain some interesting feats based on natural weapons and are an alternative to berserkers in some respects). The warforged (artifical lifeforms a like little sentient golems) I used albeit with a completely different back-story, in my setting the Karamhul forged them for elemental allies (giving them an avatar to manifest in) and, on rare occasion, to pass their spirit into when their mortal body failed them.

  4. #44
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Elves not being able to be priests (single-class or otherwise) was never in 2nd Edition, yet the Sidhelien cannot use divine magic, so the Karamhul being inherently anti-magical provides an interesting parallel. In fact, it would make sense for their creator deity to have a back-door into his own creations, allowing them to channel divine magic from their creator, whilst still making them unable to arcane magic.

    You then have lesser magic in the part of the magicians, which again differ from 2nd Ed rules for the Birthright setting, and dwarves can't be magicians either. In fact, as magicians are lesser mages, not even the Sidhelien can join their ranks.

    Ius Hibernicum, in nomine juris. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Page 10 Baruk-Azhik, 3rd para under "the dwarven diet", I can't recall if it is in the main rulebook but given the limited write-up at the start suspect on reflection that the answer is "not", alas for age, you forget where the heck you read stuff
    Ah, that would do it. I was never a big collector of the Domain Secrets books, so i was not familiar with that one. Interesting. I've never seen it mentioned in the main rulebook.

    No, they are merely noted as not casting wizardly magic - the "non-magical" is specifically tied to that 2e staple limitation for non-humans (except elves), rather than being a generic term prohibiting them from any magic. They still have clerical magic and elemental aspects which directly contradicts a wider interpretation of the term,
    Slightly different terminology may explain our differences here, i agree. When i think "magical", i think of something that could not be (at least theoretically) justified with the known laws of physics. All the special features of being a dwarf don't strike me as magical- weight difference and toughness could be from bone density, for instance. And we all eat rocks (salt), so a different physiology to process other stones (like various microbes have) isn't a big stretch. I guess my point is simply that something outside of the real-world does not equate to magical inside of the Birthright setting.

    so unless you are also planning to enforce level limits and bans on dual-classing I'm unsure why you'd keep the no-wizards 2e relic, particularly as karamhul are otherwise at least as magical than humans and in my view far more so.
    I don't think that's quite the same comparison because level limits and dual-classing don't impact the flavor of the setting. A flock of dwarven wizards though could be a game-changer. And of course, we don't have any official characters of the sort, so we'd need to invent some, and figure out a reason why dwarven wizards are so rare.

    Also, i am assuming you mean to require dwarves to be blooded, just as humans are, to be a wizard, correct? If so then i'm not vehemently opposed. But if not then i have a bigger bone to pick with you. Heh. As for magicians, a dwarf magician does feel a bit funky to me, but i could deal with it.

    He didn't have them non-magical either, and if you look at the myths Tolkein drew on Dwerger and so on are routinely described as having magical powers. I wonder sometimes if the tolkein import didn't say "only human and elven wizards" because Gygax saw Gandalf and his brethren as human - something some Tolkeinites would vehemently argue.
    You know, the moment i wrote that i had a feeling you'd be much more of a Tolkien scholar than i am (which i'm not). LOL.

    If you want to differentiate Karamhul from the human tribes as other than them being "short grumpy people" you need something more than a superficial culture twist. I add spirit/elemental aspects to provide a mid-point to the sidhe, take them away from a direct competition with humans for living space, to me the culture should spring from actual differences, not just be a few habits.
    I agree, and that's what i meant when i was talking about using Runes. Dwarves could be runecasters from the 2nd Ed Vikings book, but not clerics or wizards. So the runecaster subsumed both roles to the dwarves. I don't know if you're familiar with the Vikings book, but runes are very different both in mechanic and effect than standard wizard / priest spells. So this made Karamhul magic vastly different and unique. And since the caster "carves" the runes, there is a strong elemental component to it- releasing the mebhaighl from the rock, so to speak.


    Of course, anyone can do what they want in their own campaign. The question is one for our would-be 5E conversion, where do we draw the line of what was a legacy rule and the flavor of the setting? No doubt we will have some good discussions about such matters.


    -Fizz

  6. #46
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
    Of course, anyone can do what they want in their own campaign. The question is one for our would-be 5E conversion, where do we draw the line of what was a legacy rule and the flavor of the setting? No doubt we will have some good discussions about such matters.
    -Fizz
    I agree. We should take the same approach that was taken for the 3.0/3.5 conversion - work within the functionality of 5ed but maintain the peculiarities of the 2ed Birthright. Only make changes when we agree there are problems to the playability and functionailty of the original rules within 5ed and where there are elements of 5ed that can be accomodated within the Birthright rules without changing the Birthright themes.

    To me, that means that for default:
    * No Monks.
    * No gnomes.
    * No Sidhe clerics.
    * Five human races with distinct cultures and favoured character templates.
    * Druids are a type of cleric for Erik only.
    * Paladins are only warriors for certain deities.
    * Karamhul have a magical resistence and as such cannot be mages.
    * Halflings have an association with the Shadow World.
    * There is a Shadow power - Seeming.
    * Magicians are lesser powered than True Mages.
    * There are Law, Guild, Temple and Source holdings and regents.
    * There are provincial regents.

    I am sure there is much more, but if we start with these basics and see how these can be accomodated in 5ed, we will get somewhere a lot faster. Any changes to Birthright are exceptions which can be added later.

    Remember, we are not trying to play Birthright in 5ed (i.e. modifying Birthright to fit in 5ed). We are trying to use 5ed for Birthright (i.e. modifying 5ed to work in Birthright). That is the distinction that this community has previously made and I recommend we keep on following it.

    Sorontar
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  7. #47
    My Sidhelien elves were like so:
    Sidhelien Elves have special bonuses per the Birthrights game, so i'll remake the elves as such:
    +2 Dex,
    +1 Intelligence,
    Unaging,
    Perception as a trained skill,
    Fey Ancestry
    Darkvision 60 ft
    Nature's Stride - moving through natural difficult terrain does not cost an elf extra movement.
    Pass Without Trace as a druid.

    I run the point buy system and allow humans to choose optional or standard. I DO let them apply the +1 to their blood score stat if they choose to do so.

    I let all blooded characters use their blood score stat modifier as a one time bonus to hit points at 1st level.
    I use a modified version of the 3.5 blood score stat (that they bought with point buy costs, usually 40 points split over the 7 stats):
    - every even level is a power. 12 is a minor, 14 is a major, 16 is a great, repeat. I let them buy up to 16 if they're a non-human so everyone could get 3 powers just like they could before in 3.5.
    Feedback on that?


    How do you guys think Administrate, Warcraft, and Lead should be done in 5th ed? With such a limited number of skills, i'm unsure what to do. I believe I am going to grant additional proficiencies like the 2nd ed book states. Additional proficiencies can be spent on these skills.
    I have been doing 3.5 conversion with my people, and we're starting tomorrow with the conversion to 5e.

    Also, I had done a static +4 to a stat with heightened ability as a blood power. Should I continue to do so? Should I do the 1d6 to any stat below 14? Should it still be maxed at a 20?

    I'd love to hear some feedback.

    Christian
    Last edited by caml37; 09-06-2014 at 05:27 AM.

  8. #48

    Birthright Races D&D 5e Conversion

    Hi

    Here is my suggestion for how to handle Birthright Races in D&D 5e.


    The races generally follow the descriptions in the Birthright Rulebook, although their traits are changed as specified below.

    Dwarf

    A Cerilian dwarf has all the traits of the Dwarf race mentioned in the Player’s Handbook, plus the following:

    Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 2 more. (For a total increase of 4.)

    Ability Score Decrease. Your Dexterity score decreases by 2.

    Dense. You have an exceptionally stocky build and thick, sturdy bones. You have resistance against bludgeoning weapons and crushing damage.

    Favored enemy. You gain a +2 AC bonus against melee attacks made by Orogs and Ogres.

    High endurance. You calculate your carrying capacity as if your Strength score is 4 higher than it actually is.

    Anti-magical. Whenever you use a magical item or drink a magical potion it has a 20% chance of not working at all.

    Rock Eater. You can eat rocks for food and drink mud for water. (DM’s option.)

    Elf

    A Cerilian elf has all the traits of the Elf race mentioned in the Player’s Handbook, plus the following:

    Ability Score Increase. Your Intelligence increases by 1.

    Elf Weapon Training. You have proficiency with the longsword, shortsword, shortbow, and longbow.

    Embraced by Nature. In natural settings, you /pass without trace/ (see spell description) and ignore difficult terrain when moving.

    Halfling

    A Cerilian halfling has all the traits of the Halfling race mentioned in the Player’s Handbook, plus the following:

    Shadow World Affinity. By concentrating for one round you can detect evil (but not good), detect magic (necromancy only), and sense the presense of undead within 30 feet all at once. Also, you can sense the proximity of the Shadow World. If sufficiently close (DM’s option), you can enter (and leave) the Shadow World once between long rests at a cost of 5 feet of movement. While in the Shadow World, you must actually move from the point of entry to the point of exit. For obvious reasons, you’d normally want for your stay in the Shadow World to be as short as possible.

    Human

    A Cerilian human has all the traits of the Human race mentioned in the Player’s Handbook. This means that you as a player has the freedom to decide how well your character matches the sterotype of his human culture. To assist you in your choices, below is an overview of the favored ability score, skills and feats for each human culture.

    Anuirean
    Favored ability score: Wisdom.
    Favored skills: Insight, History, Religion.
    Favored feats: Great Weapon Master, Heavy Weapon Master, Inspiring Leader.

    Brecht
    Favored ability score: Dexterity.
    Favored skills: Deception, Perception, Slight of Hand.
    Favored feats: Defensive Duelist, Dual Wielder, Lucky.

    Khinasi
    Favored ability score: Intelligence.
    Favored skills: Arcana, History, Medicine.
    Favored feats: Linguist, Magic Initiate, Mounted Combatant.

    Rjurik
    Favored ability score: Constitution.
    Favored skills: Nature, Religion, Survival.
    Favored feats: Alert, Durable, Keen Mind.

    Vos
    Favored ability score: Strength.
    Favored skills: Animal Handling, Intimidation, Survival.
    Favored feats: Charger, Martial Adept, Mounted Combatant.

    P.S. There is have a nicer formatting here:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing. I will expand this document as I make my way through the Birthright Rulebook

  9. #49
    Senior Member Delazar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caml37 View Post
    My Sidhelien elves were like so:
    Nature's Stride - moving through natural difficult terrain does not cost an elf extra movement.
    Pass Without Trace as a druid.
    You mean the 2nd level spell, or the Land's Stride feature? They both seem quite powerful.

    I would go with:

    Nature's Stride - moving through natural difficult terrain does not cost an elf extra movement. Creature trying to track an elf always have disadvantage on their roll.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Delazar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    * Druids are a type of cleric for Erik only.
    I still think Druid should just be something very distinct from a Cleric of Nature (Erik).

    A bit like the distinction between Sorcerer and Wizard.

    Druids get their power directly from Nature, from the World, from the mebhaighl (and would use Sources instead of Temples).

    Clerics get their powers from their God, and share their love for a specific portfolio (Nature, in the case of Erik). They actively seek more followers, and use Temples.

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