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  1. #1

    Questions about province control and military units.

    In all the empire supplements (such as Ruins of Empire in the boxed set, or Rjurik Highlands), the holding breakdowns for domains fail to list province holdings. At first I assumed that this meant it was mandatory that the ruler of the domain control all province holdings, but then I noticed that Rohrmarch in Havens of the Great Bay has a civil war going on. I was a little confused about why they didn't specify which ruler controlled which province, but at first I thought the king must hold all the provinces and the prince owns nothing but law. But I did the math with their RP generation, and it doesn't work out right. Then I figured they must simply control the same province holdings that matched their law holdings, but that didn't work out mathematically either. Then I started adding up the holdings of other domains and comparing it to the listed amount, and they're all incorrect. So how do you determine who controls province holdings from the books?

    Then, just to complicate matters, I noticed in the Book of Regency it changed the province rating requirement of mustering military units to law holding requirements. Now I wonder if they wanted to remove province holdings from the game completely, and just keep law/guild/temple/source holdings. But that still doesn't explain the discrepancy of RP acquisition totals in the various books. So I'm still confused.

    While we're on the subject of the Book of Regency, it has a section listing the different GB cost of units, but has question marks for the stuff from Rjurik Highlands. Is there any errata that corrects this?

    And just a comment on GB, does it seem like 2000 GP is just too little for what they describe a GB being able to buy? For instance, a unit of elite infantry is described as wearing splint, banded, or plate mail. Even splint mail for 200 soldiers would cost over twice as much GP as that, and that doesn't count weapons, equipment, training, food, etc. I'd say they should be a minimum of 10k, or even 50k. But that's not really a question, just a mini-complaint/rant.

  2. #2
    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    So how do you determine who controls province holdings from the books?
    You don't. You assign them however you want.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by arpig2 View Post
    You don't. You assign them however you want.
    Yes, I realize I can do that. What I mean is, why are the province holdings left out of every single sourcebook? Was it accidental? If so, is there an errata somewhere? Were they trying to do away with province holdings? Something else? It makes no sense that the authors would detail explicit levels of every other type of holding, but leave out province holdings. At least, if there is sense in it, I don't see it. So what gives?

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    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    I haven't the slightest idea.
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    Junior Member stew31r's Avatar
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    On the buying of military equipment, I'd say that the money mentioned is the pay of the smiths already in your employ that are forging arms and armor for the maintenance of your military strength and the initial pay of the men raised. In the real world, history has many examples of a city's armories being opened and men being equipped for war from the stockpiles there in, stockpiles maintained for just such circumstances. Then there's the fact that troops can be levied, meaning that the lesser nobles of a province haven't got a choice but to turn over appropriately kitted men, or face legal repercussions. So you probably aren't buying arms and armor at market prices. Heck, as a king of major noble, you'd likely never do that, but requisition equipment as necessary for the defense of the realm, another method that has documented real world historical parallels.

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    In 2e the ruler either controlled the province or they didn't - there was no split ownership possibility to make province holdings relevant, something of a lack in my view, particularly for mixed-race provinces.

    Usually where you had one realm and multiple regents somewhere in the text it would say who had which provinces and which provinces were effectively uncontrolled, but it was fairly erratic.

    Alaric: 26 RP (11 law and 15 province, the southern provinces)
    Oden: 15 RP (8 law and 9 province, northern provinces)

    Not sure why Oden is 2 RP short, page 38 says neither holds Friedlund.

    On GB, there is a big exchange rate loss from what I recall - a ruler is very good at getting people to spend time, give resources, etc, but less good at getting cold hard cash out of them. It also means that when the PC loots their treasury they don't get to buy lots of magic items from that leaving the non-regent PCs with some hope of parity.
    Last edited by AndrewTall; 01-14-2014 at 09:27 PM.

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    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    My understanding was always that GB were mostly not actual cash, but payments in kind, corvees, heads of cattle, hunting rights, etc. Things that could be used to get things done on a governmental scale, but not terribly useful for buying stuff at the store.
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  8. #8
    Thanks for the comments. Interesting point about the PCs looting their treasuries. I'd been thinking the other way, and was worried that PCs would inflate their treasuries with gold won adventuring, allowing them to purchase 1st level holdings with too much ease.

    Anyone know about the Rjurik unit cost question? Or about the province vs. law holding question?
    Last edited by Naughtical; 01-15-2014 at 08:17 AM.

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    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    One way to prevent them from doing that is by saying you have to put 5000 in to get a GB, but you only get 2000 out when you try to cash out a GB.
    Or just don't give them gynormous piles of cash as treasure.
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    Senior Member arpig2's Avatar
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    Regarding the military units, just work out the costs by comparing them with equivalent units just as you would if you were creating new unit types.

    Battle Ragers are described as the equivalent of Vos berserkers so jut use those numbers for them.

    Housecarls are described as the equivalent of elite infantry, so use those numbers

    Mariners are pretty much light infantry by definition, so either use those numbers, or you might want to use the numbers from irregulars on the assumption that they are somewhat easier to recruit as they will for the most part already be equipped since the description of the unit type implies as much.

    Shapeshifters are effectively magical units, so personally I would be inclined to either discard them or to say that since each one is completely unique, raising a unit would be sort of a mini adventure and therefore there is no standard cost. Or, again compare their stats to other units which makes them the equivalent to heavy infantry with two relatively minor advantages, so I would price them as elite infantry on that basis, though I much prefer the first approach.

    Tribesmen are effectively a form of levy and the rules state quite clearly that there is no direct initial cost in raising them (Page 80/Rjurik Highlands).
    Call me Bob.
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