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  1. #1
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    religious vassalage

    There was an interesting turn of events on our last game sesion, the noble paladin of Avani, from bin Douta family no less, showed his greedy side. In the middle of diplomatic event with High Prefect of Impregnable Heart of Haelyn, he decided to bend his knee and acknowledge the Haelyn as Avanis superior, and IHH as one and only inheritor of imperial temple. In turn High Prefect ceded him some temples and forced very light vassalage on him. I would like to hear general opinion on this case, as most of the players in the group are biased, some even called him heretic. I am not sure in several things surrounding this case. Shuld he loose his paladinhood, should he turn into haelyns paladin, how should Avanians react, how should bin Doutas react, how would some hard core Haelynits react. I already have some asumptions but i would like to hear other opinions and compare them with mine.

  2. #2
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    I very much doubt that acknowledging a Haelynite superior is a violation of his Avanalaen vows and most certainly would never be grounds for abruptly switching gods.

    Ius Hibernicum, in nomine juris. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Jaleela's Avatar
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    Religion can be a touchy thing. it can be especially nasty amongst denominations of a single faith.

    Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs.

    If the worshippers of Avani strongly believe that Avani is the superior to Haelyn, the paladin's choice to bend a knee to the leader fo the IHH might be in direct opposition to these strongly held beliefs. He may be seen as a heretic and other paladins, family, etc. May behave in a number of different ways, so may be as simple as treating him like a pariah until he sees the light to outright violence depending on the nature of the players.

    Question is, how does Avani feel about it? Do the gods and goddesses intervene in your games?

    Did the player stop worshipping Avani? If so, then typically they lose any powers bestowed by that god/goddess.

    You might want to ask your player why they made the choice that they did.

    If the act is "evil" or a "sin", the paladin my have to seek attonement or a quest to make things right. Greed is a sin according to most. Paladins are held to higher standard than a typical knight or lay person. If this thing was done as a selfish act, then it's up to the DM as a stand in for the "divine" to respond accordingly.

    If they've switched faiths, then that will have a negative impact on family, friends, and commrades. They may indeed react in a myriad of ways.

    I don't think that the new god would be so quick to take the player's character as a paladin of their new faith without proof of their integrity...unless of course the character had an epiphany and they were informed that they were on the wrong path.

    Added content: Vassal
    http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...p?title=Vassal
    Last edited by Jaleela; 09-16-2013 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Added Vassal page to comments
    d'estre bons et leaulx amis et vrais ensemble et de servir l'un 'autre envers et contre tous

  4. #4
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleela View Post
    Question is, how does Avani feel about it? Do the gods and goddesses intervene in your games?
    Gods are quite distant, my desire for this capaign is to be more releted to men not divines. So gods are something of guardians of morale princiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleela View Post
    Did the player stop worshipping Avani? If so, then typically they lose any powers bestowed by that god/goddess.
    No he did not, he just ackowledged the Haelyn as Avanis superior and submited to different church. His original faith was Life and Protection of Avaenele, now it is his subsect under jurisdiction of Impregnable Heart of Haelyn. But he had some breaches of paladin code before and i am wondering should i count this one as braech to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleela View Post
    You might want to ask your player why they made the choice that they did.
    Well the player can justify his actions in many ways but it is preaty clear to me it was pure greed. He was desperate for holdings of any type, previously he grabed some manors(new type of holding i introduced in to the game), now he has temples, he is asking around for law holdings to. This is first paladin character for this player and i was lenient for his past transgresions, but this one is semi-serious.
    Last edited by cccpxepoj; 09-16-2013 at 03:56 PM.

  5. #5
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Ken Gauck described an interesting approach to the faiths that should be around somewhere if you want to dig a bit (it may be easier on the wiki).

    Loosely the approach went that every culture barring the Vos held the same rough outline of the panethoen, but each placed more or less prominence on the various portfolio's.

    So the Khinasi accepted Haelyn as the "King / General", but saw Avani as the Vizier who, in practice, ran everything the majority of the time and so to whom prayers should primarily be addressed.

    Similarly the Rjurik accepted that Haelyn was "King / General", but considered that Erik as the "Life / Harvest / Nature" god was far more relevant to their daily lives so the one who generally got prayed to.

    So your paladin hasn't denied Avani's divinity under that approach, he's just accepted that Haelyn is the King of the Gods, etc which is potentially very different.

    As noted by Jaleela though "heresy" is quite an elastic concept for some clergy - ultimately I'd see it as a more political act than theological, if the Avanite clergy want to take offence, they can probably find justification, if they want to build bridges then again they can probably do so.

    There is however the slight issue that a Paladin generally means doing everything in a moral "champion of the faith and upholder of even the hardest oaths type manner" - if the Paladin swapped faiths to escape some clerical censure, get around some prohibition (chastity, humility, etc) that they were finding inconvenient then I'd be less generous.

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    I recommend you work out a real challenge for the player that gives them the choice of either working against their Avani faith to fulfil a requirement of the Haelynites, or stay true to Avani but suffer significantly in the eyes of the Haelynites.

    Sorontar
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  7. #7
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    I recommend you work out a real challenge for the player that gives them the choice of either working against their Avani faith to fulfil a requirement of the Haelynites, or stay true to Avani but suffer significantly in the eyes of the Haelynites.

    Sorontar
    That is inevitable, because he has fallen in the ayes of both faiths.

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