Bastards and Dynasties, like a Vos!

[Lee]

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm running a BR game for the first time in years-- Pathfinder rules, Kingmaker Adventure Path, set in Mistmoor as part of expanding Rovninodensk. Neary all of my players are fans of "Game of Thrones," so I'm hoping to draw influences from there, too. All of the characters are Vos, all but one are scions.

One of my players has stepped up to be the new baroness of one province in the Mistmoor, a vassal to the Tsar of Rovninodensk. I've come up with that realm having a handful of strong vassal dynasties of its own, as well as some minor ones that have holdings in the nearest settled province. She and I are beginning to discuss some things about founding a dynasty, or extending the family she already has, which brings me to some questions for the group.

I've come up with nearly a dozen scions of known families (major & minor, mostly minor). One of them is a bastard of (so far) undetermined bloodline, and the player wanted to know if she should even consider him as a match.

What's the feeling out there? Do Cerilian dynasties care if a bastard (still has a bloodline) marries into the family? Do *Vos* lords care? Will the One True Church object, or play along?

I'm leaning towards, "Bastard or not, he'd better be strong enough to keep the throne, or he won't be able to keep the throne!" being the Vos default attitude, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

Side question: the PC has a bossy older half-sister and a father who is close to the throne. How much say should they have in the matter of who the new Baroness marries? The PC is not in direct succession to her father, she's the youngest of 3, and from a second marriage to boot. So far, we've been playing the father as hands-off, with her as "Daddy's little (nearly spoiled) princess," so he might not object much.

[Marco Fossati]

The Vos default attitude seems the best option to me.

Dynasties however, as for Vos' beliefs, are IMO not very suitable for a Vos campaign since they don't care about heritage or ancestors but only about strength.

[Magian]

The tribal Vos I would think wouldn't have value on lineage. If they did, it would be along the lines of Belinik and Kriesha and the myths of the tribe itself, which I would believe would vary quite a bit from one tribe to the next. However, a title of conqueror of the Gorgon would gain much support throughout Vosgaard I'd think. Like anything it would be all in how it is sold or the story is told. Constructing myths and them being validated and supported by the religious leaders would be essential.

As for the more "civilized" Vos that are going towards the trend of kingdom like the Brechts and Anuireans, perhaps it would be a matter of derision. I would argue much less so compared to the other cultures as a bastard lord strong enough to establish themselves would garner respect. The act of calling such a lord a bastard could even become a badge of honor and testament to their own strength and may even begin a new type of title if you wanted to go that way.

I would even argue that in Vosgaard so long as the lord is strong enough he could create what ever he wanted for his own tribe's / kingdom's culture. Say for example after the bastard lord only bastards are viewed to be eligible to lead. It may be weird, but may bring about some different sword in the stone type campaigns for the bastards of the lands. Then again do you want the Vos to even conceive of the term bastard? Perhaps they are sexually open and without names from their fathers with the exceptions of the great names claiming to be as strong as their lineage, which may invite several challenges and lower the survival rate of Vos with lineage.

[Lee]

Let me bend this toward something closer to the player's concern now. Should the new Baroness, or anyone else, *care* if one suitor is a bastard? So far, he's nothing special as a warrior, but he's got some brains-- the scion family that he's living with (and is possibly related to?) has found that he make a good castle-steward.

[AndrewTall]

Given the comments on Sugat Tsorich (P5, DM's Guidebook, Tribes of the Heartless Waste) and general comments of hereditary rule I suspect that the Vos take blood relationships (and feuds, and blood generally) very seriously.

Whether they are bothered about formal marriage is another question, I suspect that if the bastard fails in life then they'd be less likely to be supported by the tribe than a child of marriage (the illigitimacy being the excuse for the family to disown them), but if they succeed then the tribe would wipe the slate clean and cherish them as they would any other contributor to the tribes well-being.

I note that the Vos are very very pragmatic, "marriages in arrears" might be common, while in many areas I'd expect that "marriage" and "living together" are identical terms, with big formal ceremonies only held between nobles.

[Magnus Argent]

Let me bend this toward something closer to the player's concern now. Should the new Baroness, or anyone else, *care* if one suitor is a bastard? So far, he's nothing special as a warrior, but he's got some brains-- the scion family that he's living with (and is possibly related to?) has found that he make a good castle-steward.

I don't see any eyebrows being raised over a suitor's illegitimacy. But a suitor with brains? The priests of Belinek would have a fit. Remember, Belinek does not like peace. They like strife and terror. Only the strong deserve to rule. If the Baroness came into power through strength of arms, the priesthood would have no choice but to support her.. but at the first sign that she is laying groundwork to create a stable, peaceful realm, they'd immediately begin to undermine her rule. Peace is for the lily-livered, sayeth Belinek. A suitor who shows signs of making a good administrator would be a big no-no in their eyes.

[AndrewTall]

I don't see any eyebrows being raised over a suitor's illegitimacy. But a suitor with brains? The priests of Belinek would have a fit. Remember, Belinek does not like peace. They like strife and terror. Only the strong deserve to rule. If the Baroness came into power through strength of arms, the priesthood would have no choice but to support her.. but at the first sign that she is laying groundwork to create a stable, peaceful realm, they'd immediately begin to undermine her rule. Peace is for the lily-livered, sayeth Belinek. A suitor who shows signs of making a good administrator would be a big no-no in their eyes.

To me it depends on what she's going to do with the realm. A good administrator who ensures that the warriors are well fed and armed, that the peasants are made to work the land hard, etc would have value - a realm that seeks to conquer must after all be strong.

I note that fools are rarely considered great leaders, even by thugs; too much imagination may not be considered highly by the warriors but a cunning hunter who can foresee his foes' tactics and arrange deadly ambushes for them would be highly valued.

While Belinik is often the first image of the Vos that comes to mind I think we overlook Kriesha sometimes - her faith is all about efficiency, drawing the best use from the land and people - and trimming unnecessary frills. Kriesha's faith would see an efficient realm as a strong realm - one perhaps that should extend its guidance to other lands to better guide the people there to gain in strength.

There is also the question of what the ruler wants in a match - someone with complimentary skills and abilities, or a warrior to challenge her strength? That is partly where family comes in - they want to see the family prosper so they'd want someone who would be a strong match for her, ensure that children were raised well, etc - they'd likely oppose someone they considered unsuitable and deny her familial support to encourage her to ditch the loser and pick a better match.