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09-11-2012, 01:51 AM #1
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Adjudicating Magicians and Specialization Using Pathfinder.
In the Pathfinder rules (which are really a kind of D&D 3.6 or 3.7)
the rules for wizard specialization are changed. Specialists still
get a bonus spell per level, but they aren`t entirely barred from
their opposition school(s). Rather, memorizing a spell from their
opposition school requires two spell slots rather than one, "paying"
for the bonus spell. There are a few other ancillary benefits of
specialization along with related penalties, but those don`t really
concern us overly for BR purposes.
In BR, of course, we have magicians who are usually portrayed as
"specialist" illusionists and/or diviners in 3e+ terms. They got a
few additional benefits in 2e, though, given the fact that opposition
schools were everything but illusions, divinations and, I guess,
universal spells.
So, two questions:
1. For blooded wizards, would you use the Pathfinder version of
specialization in a BR campaign, or require an older 3e interpretation?
2. Given that specialization is a bit more relaxed in Pathfinder, do
you think Magicians should be given additional capabilities if using
the Pathfinder version of specialization?
Gary
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09-11-2012, 08:13 PM #2
As a note, Magican's spell selection was only limited for L3 and above spells from recollection - given the low numbers of magicians over L5 that's a fairly insignificant restriction in practice.
My perspective is that thematically - if not mechanically - the magician was not at all like a specialist, they lacked the raw power to safely use other magics, they didn't focus heavily on divinations/illusion and thus lose skill elsewhere, they simply weren't capable of other magic (the chamberlain aside) so the restriction could be justifiably continued in my view.
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09-12-2012, 07:13 PM #3
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Adjudicating Magicians and Specialization Using Pathfinder. [9#28195]
At 01:13 PM 9/11/2012, AndrewTall wrote:
>As a note, Magican`s spell selection was only limited for L3 and
>above spells from recollection - given the low numbers of magicians
>over L5 that`s a fairly insignificant restriction in practice.
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.
>My perspective is that thematically - if not mechanically - the
>magician was not at all like a specialist, they lacked the raw power
>to safely use other magics, they didn`t focus heavily on
>divinations/illusion and thus lose skill elsewhere, they simply
>weren`t capable of other magic (the chamberlain aside) so the
>restriction could be justifiably continued in my view.
It`s been a while since I read it, but doesn`t the 3e update treat
magicians as specialists? I had always thought so, though I have my
own interpretation, so I could easily be getting them confused. In
any case, wouldn`t someone interested in magic but limited in its use
specialize in those aspects that s/he could employ? Magicians would
be wizards if they had a bloodline. They aren`t like rangers or
paladins (or other classes) for whom spellcasting is a sort of
ancillary benefit.
Anyway, I`m not suggesting that they gain access to spells other than
illusion and divination using Pathfinder. I wouldn`t want to change
something so fundamental to the setting. Rather, I wonder if there
should be additional benefits of being a magician to compensate for
the greater access of (blooded) specialist wizards in BR.
I ask because when playing a specialist (enchanter) in another
campaign under 3.5 rules that later switched to Pathfinder, I found
my character MUCH more capable than he had been before. Not
necessarily much more useful in spellcasting, but the restriction on
even USING magic items that come from one of his formerly "forbidden"
schools of magic had been lifted, so things like necromancy were
suddenly available. Seemingly small things (a scroll of False Life
that gives d10+level hp, for instance) actually can make a pretty big
difference for a wizard.
Given that magicians remain barred from any (L3+ spells) of other
schools than illusion and divination, I wonder if that merits an
additional class feature, number of bonus feats, or some other
benefit to compensate.
Gary
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09-12-2012, 09:45 PM #4
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Which reminds me....
The restriction on necromancy for Khinasi wizards is also a pretty
serious issue. Effectively, that gives Khinasi wizards a penalty
that compares to that of specialists....
Should having to take the Five Oaths give a benefit to the
character? An extra feat, perhaps? A limited specialization
effect? Maybe a +1 CL in a school of magic?
Gary
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09-13-2012, 10:22 PM #5
I answered based on 2e first time, sorry, having looked it up, the BRCS looks to be similar to 2e with spell list based on divination, illusion and low level healing with a comment to allow some chamrs.
I'd add charms because it fits the low power magician approach, keeps the blood 'n' thunder for true wizards, while allowing the steroetypical witches with their power to warp men's minds and suchlike. Even with a third school Magicians are much more restricted than regular specialists, so some benefit it needed - I'd go for more skills and add an ability to use forbidden school items like you suggest (the power isn't coming from the magician afterall).
The problem here in my view is a social gain vs a mechanical penalty which simply doesn't work despite good intentions.
In my view the 5 oaths could be seen in two ways:
1.Purely social: publicly keep the oath = social gains, much like preserving/defiling in the darksun books (where the sorceress dips into defiling when she "needs to" but gets in trouble when this is found out).
2. Purely mechanical, the oath-maker really can't use necromancy, in exchange they should then have a mechanical benefit.
One mechanical cost/benefit exchange could be a ban on negative necromancy in exchange for enhanced access to positive necromancy (clerical healing) to put the ban on the socially unacceptable stuff like bothering the dead where it belongs (Mrs Cake's views notwithstanding) and highlight the godly blessing in the oath.
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10-04-2012, 03:40 PM #6
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From a mechanical perspective, I think players could have the option at character creation of A) Not abiding by the Oath and cast Necromancy as they wish but limit themselves in RP, or B) impose upon themselves a limitation to bar the school outright and if they do so they get a minor benefit which applies only to wizards that do not bar the school outright as a specialist. I think a bonus to spellcraft to Identify necromantic uses or a bonus to dispelling/counterspelling necromantic effects.
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10-04-2012, 08:07 PM #7
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10-31-2012, 01:50 AM #8
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Adjudicating Magicians and Specialization Using Pathfinder
I would make Magicians into an Archetype where they are pick Illusion and Divination as specialty schools but in turn are barred from all other schools. They also get 2 additional bonus spells instead of one that can be used on either Illusion spells and Divination spells.
As for Khinasi you could have a feat:
Signer of the Five Oaths: Upon recieving this feat the PC would gain a geas type effect where so long as he does not violate the five oaths he recieves a +1 CL Bonus to a Spell School of his choice. Violating the Five Oaths would render the feat useless until the wizards undergoes an Atonement.
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05-01-2021, 02:50 PM #9
Are Magicians much more restricted than comparable - not regular - specialists?
In 2E I saw Magicians as double specialized in Divination and Illusion + access up to L2 of the other schools + some minor stuff.
Comparable would not be the normal specialist Mage who specialized in one and shuns another school, but something like the Red Wizard of Thay who also shuns more than one school.Michael Romes
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05-04-2021, 09:36 PM #10
In 2e magicians were only able to access 2 schools for spells above 3rd level, so whereas a normal specialist lost 1 school, the magician lost 6...
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