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  1. #1
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    Adjudicating Magicians and Specialization Using Pathfinder.

    In the Pathfinder rules (which are really a kind of D&D 3.6 or 3.7)
    the rules for wizard specialization are changed. Specialists still
    get a bonus spell per level, but they aren`t entirely barred from
    their opposition school(s). Rather, memorizing a spell from their
    opposition school requires two spell slots rather than one, "paying"
    for the bonus spell. There are a few other ancillary benefits of
    specialization along with related penalties, but those don`t really
    concern us overly for BR purposes.

    In BR, of course, we have magicians who are usually portrayed as
    "specialist" illusionists and/or diviners in 3e+ terms. They got a
    few additional benefits in 2e, though, given the fact that opposition
    schools were everything but illusions, divinations and, I guess,
    universal spells.

    So, two questions:

    1. For blooded wizards, would you use the Pathfinder version of
    specialization in a BR campaign, or require an older 3e interpretation?

    2. Given that specialization is a bit more relaxed in Pathfinder, do
    you think Magicians should be given additional capabilities if using
    the Pathfinder version of specialization?

    Gary

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    As a note, Magican's spell selection was only limited for L3 and above spells from recollection - given the low numbers of magicians over L5 that's a fairly insignificant restriction in practice.

    My perspective is that thematically - if not mechanically - the magician was not at all like a specialist, they lacked the raw power to safely use other magics, they didn't focus heavily on divinations/illusion and thus lose skill elsewhere, they simply weren't capable of other magic (the chamberlain aside) so the restriction could be justifiably continued in my view.

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    Adjudicating Magicians and Specialization Using Pathfinder. [9#28195]

    At 01:13 PM 9/11/2012, AndrewTall wrote:

    >As a note, Magican`s spell selection was only limited for L3 and
    >above spells from recollection - given the low numbers of magicians
    >over L5 that`s a fairly insignificant restriction in practice.

    Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

    >My perspective is that thematically - if not mechanically - the
    >magician was not at all like a specialist, they lacked the raw power
    >to safely use other magics, they didn`t focus heavily on
    >divinations/illusion and thus lose skill elsewhere, they simply
    >weren`t capable of other magic (the chamberlain aside) so the
    >restriction could be justifiably continued in my view.

    It`s been a while since I read it, but doesn`t the 3e update treat
    magicians as specialists? I had always thought so, though I have my
    own interpretation, so I could easily be getting them confused. In
    any case, wouldn`t someone interested in magic but limited in its use
    specialize in those aspects that s/he could employ? Magicians would
    be wizards if they had a bloodline. They aren`t like rangers or
    paladins (or other classes) for whom spellcasting is a sort of
    ancillary benefit.

    Anyway, I`m not suggesting that they gain access to spells other than
    illusion and divination using Pathfinder. I wouldn`t want to change
    something so fundamental to the setting. Rather, I wonder if there
    should be additional benefits of being a magician to compensate for
    the greater access of (blooded) specialist wizards in BR.

    I ask because when playing a specialist (enchanter) in another
    campaign under 3.5 rules that later switched to Pathfinder, I found
    my character MUCH more capable than he had been before. Not
    necessarily much more useful in spellcasting, but the restriction on
    even USING magic items that come from one of his formerly "forbidden"
    schools of magic had been lifted, so things like necromancy were
    suddenly available. Seemingly small things (a scroll of False Life
    that gives d10+level hp, for instance) actually can make a pretty big
    difference for a wizard.

    Given that magicians remain barred from any (L3+ spells) of other
    schools than illusion and divination, I wonder if that merits an
    additional class feature, number of bonus feats, or some other
    benefit to compensate.

    Gary

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    Which reminds me....

    The restriction on necromancy for Khinasi wizards is also a pretty
    serious issue. Effectively, that gives Khinasi wizards a penalty
    that compares to that of specialists....

    Should having to take the Five Oaths give a benefit to the
    character? An extra feat, perhaps? A limited specialization
    effect? Maybe a +1 CL in a school of magic?

    Gary

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L View Post
    It`s been a while since I read it, but doesn`t the 3e update treat magicians as specialists?
    I answered based on 2e first time, sorry, having looked it up, the BRCS looks to be similar to 2e with spell list based on divination, illusion and low level healing with a comment to allow some chamrs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L View Post
    Anyway, I`m not suggesting that they gain access to spells other than illusion and divination using Pathfinder. I wouldn`t want to change something so fundamental to the setting. Rather, I wonder if there should be additional benefits of being a magician to compensate for the greater access of (blooded) specialist wizards in BR.
    I'd add charms because it fits the low power magician approach, keeps the blood 'n' thunder for true wizards, while allowing the steroetypical witches with their power to warp men's minds and suchlike. Even with a third school Magicians are much more restricted than regular specialists, so some benefit it needed - I'd go for more skills and add an ability to use forbidden school items like you suggest (the power isn't coming from the magician afterall).

    Quote Originally Posted by Birthright-L View Post
    Should having to take the Five Oaths give a benefit to the character? An extra feat, perhaps? A limited specialization effect? Maybe a +1 CL in a school of magic?
    Gary
    The problem here in my view is a social gain vs a mechanical penalty which simply doesn't work despite good intentions.

    In my view the 5 oaths could be seen in two ways:

    1.Purely social: publicly keep the oath = social gains, much like preserving/defiling in the darksun books (where the sorceress dips into defiling when she "needs to" but gets in trouble when this is found out).

    2. Purely mechanical, the oath-maker really can't use necromancy, in exchange they should then have a mechanical benefit.

    One mechanical cost/benefit exchange could be a ban on negative necromancy in exchange for enhanced access to positive necromancy (clerical healing) to put the ban on the socially unacceptable stuff like bothering the dead where it belongs (Mrs Cake's views notwithstanding) and highlight the godly blessing in the oath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I answered based on 2e first time, sorry, having looked it up, the BRCS looks to be similar to 2e with spell list based on divination, illusion and low level healing with a comment to allow some chamrs.



    I'd add charms because it fits the low power magician approach, keeps the blood 'n' thunder for true wizards, while allowing the steroetypical witches with their power to warp men's minds and suchlike. Even with a third school Magicians are much more restricted than regular specialists, so some benefit it needed - I'd go for more skills and add an ability to use forbidden school items like you suggest (the power isn't coming from the magician afterall).



    The problem here in my view is a social gain vs a mechanical penalty which simply doesn't work despite good intentions.

    In my view the 5 oaths could be seen in two ways:

    1.Purely social: publicly keep the oath = social gains, much like preserving/defiling in the darksun books (where the sorceress dips into defiling when she "needs to" but gets in trouble when this is found out).

    2. Purely mechanical, the oath-maker really can't use necromancy, in exchange they should then have a mechanical benefit.

    One mechanical cost/benefit exchange could be a ban on negative necromancy in exchange for enhanced access to positive necromancy (clerical healing) to put the ban on the socially unacceptable stuff like bothering the dead where it belongs (Mrs Cake's views notwithstanding) and highlight the godly blessing in the oath.

    From a mechanical perspective, I think players could have the option at character creation of A) Not abiding by the Oath and cast Necromancy as they wish but limit themselves in RP, or B) impose upon themselves a limitation to bar the school outright and if they do so they get a minor benefit which applies only to wizards that do not bar the school outright as a specialist. I think a bonus to spellcraft to Identify necromantic uses or a bonus to dispelling/counterspelling necromantic effects.

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    Magicians are not specialists. They are an alternate spellcasting class with it's own spell list. Mainly illusion/divination, but a smattering of other stuff.

    If they are to be a PC playable the class needs enough other abilities to make it worthwhile. Otherwise it's an NPC class.
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

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    Adjudicating Magicians and Specialization Using Pathfinder

    I would make Magicians into an Archetype where they are pick Illusion and Divination as specialty schools but in turn are barred from all other schools. They also get 2 additional bonus spells instead of one that can be used on either Illusion spells and Divination spells.

    As for Khinasi you could have a feat:

    Signer of the Five Oaths: Upon recieving this feat the PC would gain a geas type effect where so long as he does not violate the five oaths he recieves a +1 CL Bonus to a Spell School of his choice. Violating the Five Oaths would render the feat useless until the wizards undergoes an Atonement.

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