Quesitons regarding BRCS.

[irdeggman]

OK I see the problem from Chap 5:

There is a maximum to the amount of regency that a character can collect per domain turn. A scion can earn no more than twice their current bloodline ability score in domain regency collections per domain turn

.

Which based on changes to Chap 2 would correspond to a max RP collectoin (from all sources) equal to the regent's blood line score.

Hmm since this chapter hasn't been revised yet there are definitely 2 ways to go. One is to match the playtest which effectively limited regents, like Avan, from what they had been able to get in 2nd ed.

Interesting how this issue hasn't popped up before.

Or change it to match what I had posted above.

Feedback anyone?

Personal opinion - limiting the RP coming in shouldn't have as much of a neutering effect as people seem to think it may. It may even serve to more even things out game mechanic-wise. Remember that the playtest also had a much less reliance on RP to perfrom domain actions - i.e., most only requied GB in order to perform at all, while RP increased/decreased likelihood of success.

[ausrick]

From the NPC regents I have transfered or made from scratch, a good number of the ones who have decent sized domains are at the point where their domains offer more regency than their bloodline would allow them to collect. To me it would make sense, and I just assumed, that Vassalage was a way to break the max collect barrier but not the reserve, Otherwise there would be a lot less vassalage agreements and a lot more Gold Bar Tribute, I would assume, . . . because your domain can never have too many Gold Bars. **Thinking of Scrooge McDuck swimming in his treasury**

Also another point this brings up. Say I have a domain that could net me 40 RP, but I only have a bloodline that will allow me to collect 20. Say I owe Gavin Tael 9 RP a turn for him to go around me instead of through me on his path to the Iron Throne. Would I collect what my bloodline allows, and then pay him, leaving me only 11 RP per turn, OR would I Collect my maximum from the land, Pay my vassalage, and then since I am in excess of what I am allowed to collect because of my bloodline loose the excess and only have 20 RP per turn?

[irdeggman]

Also another point this brings up. Say I have a domain that could net me 40 RP, but I only have a bloodline that will allow me to collect 20. Say I owe Gavin Tael 9 RP a turn for him to go around me instead of through me on his path to the Iron Throne. Would I collect what my bloodline allows, and then pay him, leaving me only 11 RP per turn, OR would I Collect my maximum from the land, Pay my vassalage, and then since I am in excess of what I am allowed to collect because of my bloodline loose the excess and only have 20 RP per turn?

Now in this case both sets of rules are pretty consistent - you can't transfer what you can't get. That is to say if your holdings would give you more RP than your your bloodline str would allow you to gain it is simply wasted RP. That is when you set up vassals to handle these holdings so that they are not wasted.

That is your first choice is the proper one.

You get 20 RP then pay 9 leaving you 11 RP to work with.

[geeman]

At 02:09 PM 11/22/2005 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

>There is a maximum to the amount of regency that a character can collect
>per domain turn. A scion can earn no more than twice their current
>bloodline ability score in domain regency collections per domain turn.
>
>Which based on changes to Chap 2 would correspond to a max RP collectoin
>(from all sources) equal to the regent`s blood line score.
>
>Hmm since this chapter hasn`t been revised yet there are definitely 2 ways
>to go. One is to match the playtest which effectively limited regents,
>like Avan, from what they had been able to get in 2nd ed.
>
>Interesting how this issue hasn`t popped up before.
>
>Or change it to match what I had posted above.
>
>Feedback anyone?
>
>Personal opinion - limiting the RP coming in shouldn`t have as much of a
>neutering effect as people seem to think it may. It may even serve to more
>even things out game mechanic-wise. Remember that the playtest also had a
>much less reliance on RP to perfrom domain actions - i.e., most only
>requied GB in order to perform at all, while RP increased/decreased
>likelihood of success.

This is one of those things that`ll probably only rarely show up in
anyone`s campaign. There`s a distinct possibility that it could happen,
but only when a regent has a low bloodline score to begin with does it seem
like something that`d be very likely. That said, I don`t think there
should be an upper cap on RP collection for several reasons:

1. I suspect the text regarding that cap might be something that wasn`t
changed from the earlier playtest when bloodline was made an ability score
and that ability score was then doubled to equate it to bloodline
score. To keep with the original RP collection from provinces and holdings
per the original rules the cap would be that bloodline as ability score x2.

2. As I noted in the previous post capping RP collection from ALL sources
does create a rather weird snaggle when it comes to the backstory of the
campaign setting. How did any of that stuff occur using the bloodline
system as presented? It`s always a peeve when game mechanics of campaign
setting contradict campaign material.

3. It does seem to be more of a problem for regents with low bloodline
strength scores than for ones with higher bloodlines. That might not
actually be a "problem" given that those with lower bloodlines already are
"penalized" in a sense, but one should be aware of how it`ll take effect,
and question whether one wants a character who has managed to forge
together a domain that generates RP in such a dramatic capacity should run
into a wall based upon his bloodline score.

4. Certain campaign styles based on diplomacy and forging massive alliances
would be hampered by such a rule. Since those are my favored types of
campaign styles I find that a bit problematic.

When it boils down to it, a cap would force a regent to spend RP on his
bloodline or engage in other activities that will raise his score, and I
think that`s good thing since it provides a nice campaign basis for certain
adventuring activities and something to do with lots of RP. On the whole,
however, it`s not clear to me that this particular cap is the best route to
that goal. Something more along the lines of the orginal ruling (cap RP
collection from _personal_ provinces/holdings at bloodline score while
placing no restriction on RP collection from all other sources) would
probably encourage those types of play while still putting some sort of
limit on the system.

Gary

[Osprey]

I don't have the BRCS in front of me to reference, so I'm going from memory.

What I recall, however, was that the order of collections was key to determining RP collection limits. I think it went like this (in 2nd ed and BRCS):

1. Collections - collect RP and GB from holdings and trade routes.
2. Maintenance - pay necessary GB in seasonal maintenance for assets (structures, troops, ships, etc. - also holdings in 2e).
3. Vassalage - Pay and/or collect any RP/GB from tribute and vassalage agreements.

My understanding had always been that a bloodline's RP collection limit applied specifically to Step 1: Collections, and that RP from vassalage was a seperate issue entirely.

I agree with Gary in that bigger overall RP income seems to be a vital aspect of what it means to be a feudal overlord, and most especially Emperor. Having run a BR campaign where 1 empire was created (in Aduria) and a second one is in the making (in Anuire), I can vouch for the fact that extra RP from vassalage makes a tremendous difference in overall levels of power.

The 1 RP to perform domain actions from 2e vs. the 1 GB in the BRCS really isn't all that significant except at the lower levels of play (when every last RP or GB counts). At higher levels, where feudal pyramids become more prevalent, vassalage means a lot, because it gives the liege regent the ability to:
1. Consistently raise his or her bloodline on a regular basis (2x per year in the current rules).
2. Outbid and overpower any lesser regent in a 1-on-1 RP war (such as in a Contest action, or when blocking someone else's Create/Rule Holding action).

Playing with the BRCS rules, my experience was that once realms had their holdings ruled up to maximum potential (holding levels = province levels), RP mostly sat around waiting to boost a regent's bloodline. But when a Contest action went down, suddenly it was all about who had the biggest RP reserve - and liege lords with large total RP collections could count on having a big regency reserve every single season. And that is what makes guys like Avan and Boeruine so consistently formidable. Even if they just raised their bloodline at the end of last season - WHAM! - another 90+ RP this season!

In the BRCS, with the RP reserve limit rules in place, what this tends to do is force the big guys to find somewhere to spend some of their RP each season - quite a lot of it with the latest version of the Ch 2 rules (which has the lowest RP reserve limit of any of the 3 editions - 2e, 3e, and now 3.5).
Which means Avan and Boeruine will probably be a constant nuisance to at least one of their neighbors on a regular basis. Hurray!

[geeman]

At 04:13 AM 11/23/2005 +0100, Osprey wrote:

>Having run a BR campaign where 1 empire was created (in Aduria) and a
>second one is in the making (in Anuire), I can vouch for the fact that
>extra RP from vassalage makes a tremendous difference in overall levels of
>power.

I`m just going to comment that this "Aduria Empire" campaign sounds cooler
than cryogenicly preserved penguin teats.

Gary

[irdeggman]

I don't have the BRCS in front of me to reference, so I'm going from memory.

What I recall, however, was that the order of collections was key to determining RP collection limits. I think it went like this (in 2nd ed and BRCS):

1. Collections - collect RP and GB from holdings and trade routes.
2. Maintenance - pay necessary GB in seasonal maintenance for assets (structures, troops, ships, etc. - also holdings in 2e).
3. Vassalage - Pay and/or collect any RP/GB from tribute and vassalage agreements.

My understanding had always been that a bloodline's RP collection limit applied specifically to Step 1: Collections, and that RP from vassalage was a seperate issue entirely.

Actually from the BRCS-playtest, pgs 96-97.



First section talks about holdings.



Second section talks about other sources, such as vassalage.

A scion can also gain regency from a vassalage agreement bound by a ceremony of investiture. During the casting of the investiture realm spell, the vassal regent pledges to supply a fixed seasonal amount of RP to their liege. The book-keeping for the RP collected by the liege lord is performed during collections

Last paragraph says:

There is a maximum to the amount of regency that a character can collect per domain turn. A scion can earn no more than twice their current bloodline ability score in domain regency collections per domain turn. There is also limit to the amount of regency that a character can store. Any RP gained above the character's maximum regency reserve is lost immediately. A character's maximum RP reserve is equal to five times their bloodline score (see Table 2-3: Bloodline ability score).

So the way to read it to the interpretation you had was via the use of the word “collections” and comparing that to the “Collections” in the Regency Collection Table. Could be done, but is a stretch IMO, especially since the section talking bout gaining regency from vassals occurring during the “collections”.

I agree with Gary in that bigger overall RP income seems to be a vital aspect of what it means to be a feudal overlord, and most especially Emperor. Having run a BR campaign where 1 empire was created (in Aduria) and a second one is in the making (in Anuire), I can vouch for the fact that extra RP from vassalage makes a tremendous difference in overall levels of power.

Good point. But another way to look at is to be a war of prevention. That is the feudal lord is preventing others from getting RP to use against him by denying them access to it. He will always, unless he has a lower bloodline score (in which case he has a tenuous grasp on being a feudal lord in the first place), have a larger RP pool to use than his vassals.

In the BRCS, with the RP reserve limit rules in place, what this tends to do is force the big guys to find somewhere to spend some of their RP each season - quite a lot of it with the latest version of the Ch 2 rules (which has the lowest RP reserve limit of any of the 3 editions - 2e, 3e, and now 3.5).
Which means Avan and Boeruine will probably be a constant nuisance to at least one of their neighbors on a regular basis. Hurray!

Or to each other. There is always agititation.







The more I hear the more I think that the “rules” should be:



Max RP collection from holdings should be bloodline score.


The max a regent can have at any given time is equal to his reserve (2x bloodline score). This includes gains from vassals and usurpation.



This still gives a large advantage to regents with high blood scores, which is pretty much who we are talking about in the first place and gives a great incentive for regents to find ways to increase their blood score and thus become “better” stewards (i.e., regents).



Probably should have some method of handling “temporary” gains via realm magic or artifacts and the like. With these handled similarly to temporary hit points.



Let’s give this discussion a little more time to get the general “feel” and them maybe a poll for quantification/confirmation.

[ausrick]

Gavin Tael, Regent of Ghoere, according to the RoE has a bloodline of 49 Major. He can collect 49RP per turn, However, when I take his holdings from RoE (Provinces and most of the law of Ghoere, some Law in Mhoried) I come up with a possible 74 RP per turn using the BRCS and sanctioned chapters. In the Domain Secrets of Ghoere (I think it was written by a player though) It says that Ghorien Hiriele pays him vassalage, also it has been my understanding that Gavin probably has other people giving him RP as well, and that that would be desireable.

This is just one situation where following the book leads to a regent who's Domain is a lot bigger than his bloodline. IMO The only reason Gavin would have Hiriele give him RP is so that he would make more RP for himself (Thus vassalage goes ontop of holdings) and hopefully with making Phat RP income be able to administrate his domain AND Raise his bloodline score once or twice per year. The other option I've been presented with was someone had told me "Maybe he just sits on it to make his vassals burn it and thus have more control over them" But the secrets book made this sound unlikely by stateing that Hiriele pretty much had to go beg Gavin to give him RP to do whatever it was he wanted to do. That is effective vassal control but would be so wasteful and tax Gavin's RP reserves so much it wouldn't be economical at all to have to support his puppet gilder out of his 49 RP.

I was definitely under the understanding though, that not even vassalage would break your RP Reserve cap. That would make it so that you could wrack up RP potentially a lot faster than you would be able to convert it to bloodline, I would think you would have RP overload, or burn or something, maybe just plain explode with divine energy.

Just my thoughts, observations, and what I have found.

[Osprey]

Well, Ausrick, what you've written is in agreeance with what Irdeggman wrote, which is pretty much in agreeance with what Geeman and I have written.

Geez, it isn't often that everyone posting is more or less in agreeance. Kinda' cool.

Duane, let the discussion roll a bit more, but if there aren't any objections to the proposed system (vassalage AFTER collections, max RP limit always applies), then I'd suggest we just skip the poll. if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?

[Osprey]

I`m just going to comment that this "Aduria Empire" campaign sounds cooler
than cryogenicly preserved penguin teats.

Gary

Heh heh.

Previously I had written a fair amount about this campaign on the forums here, especially in the Atlas threads that Ian had started about Aduria. It was mostly a long-distance solo campaign with my friend, though it paralleled my ongoing Anuirean campaign. Here's a link to the website, which my friend (Tchar Azazel here on the forums) did a lot with and I helped with here and there: The Mieres Empire

In short, Blaede Mieres, the landed regent of Mieres (IMC a Duke with a Great bloodline of Masela) and his twin sister Jetana (High Priestess of the Southern Temple of Neserie) sailed on a shipboard expedition south to the eastern coast of Aduria as a sort of "coming of age" initiation voyage - a long-standing tradition of the Mieres family. Each Mieres scion was expected to take a major voyage of exploration before they were considered worthy of inheritance and adulthood.

Anyways, they explored, survived, and returned to Mieres, survived an attack by pirates (sent by our favorite Mieres villain, Aaron Vaumel, who had usurped the throne while they were away), took back their inheritance, and set about strengthening Mieres. Vaumel ended up sleeping with the fishes.

Eventually, their power in Mieres consolidated and a strong Naval Academy established in Ghaele (the capital), they began to build a powerful fleet and army with the intention of invading the Adurian coast and "cleansing the evil and corruption they had found there." So began the Mieres Crusade, in which troops and fleets attacked and subdued most of the Eastern Adurian city-states, one by one (with the exception of a few "salvagable" states won over by Jetana's diplomatic efforts - these were 1st allies, and later integrated into the Mieres Empire).

It keeps going, but eventually a combination of war and diplomacy won the Mieres regents some 50+ provinces. I actually invented an epic-scale domain action called "Create Empire" especially for this occasion - with a base DC of something like (1000-total province levels), requiring hundreds of RP and GB to be successful (which means no one regent could accomplish it singlehandedly - all vassals and regents of the would-be Empire contributed RP and/or GB to the effort). It was pretty cool.

The Mieres Empire was officially inaugurated on New Year's Day of 564 MR - about 13-1/2 years after the start date of the campaign (Summer 551 MR). Not too shabby.

That's about all I'm gonna write here, as this is the BRCS forum, but yeah - it was pretty cool, and I had a whole lot of fun inventing the landscape of Aduria (mostly from scratch, with some vague inspiration from Ian's map and the few Adurian references in the 2e Atlas).

Osprey