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  1. #21
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jew
    Yeah that would be a problem. In Anuire it would probably require a priestess of Eloele or her mother. Mieres could make a pretty penny being the site for such transfers.
    Sera/Sarimie as the goddess of trade perhaps... Eloele would prefer to see things stolen, paying for something is just not her style, and I don't see her encouraging this in her priests. After all, why pay to invest a bloodline when you can just steal it with bloodtheft. Priests of Sarimie may be more inclined to assist, looking on it as a good investment.
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    exchange rates

    A million dollars is less than 50 years worth of the Median wage (the wage at which 50% earn less and 50% earn more). I'm guessing the Median wage in Anuire is significantly less than 100 gp. But even at that price 5,000 gp would be a more comparable sum, or 2.5 GB's. A more than generous compensation.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  3. #23
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie


    I don't have the book on me here that deals with the demographics (High Level Campaign I think) but I remember that the general distribution of characters was something like this

    40% fiighters
    30% rogues
    25% clerics
    5% wizards/magicians (probably at a ratio of 1:5)

    Level distribution is progressive (not sure about the term, but the point is that 1/2 is 1st level and then 1/2 of that 2nd etc)


    level--total-----fighters----rogues-----clerics-----mages
    1st--75,000-----30,000-----22,500-----18,750------3,750
    2nd-37,500-----15,000-----11,250------9,375-------1,875
    3rd-18,750------7,500------5,625-------4,687---------937
    4th---9,375------3,750------2,812-------2,343---------468
    5th---4,687------1,875------1,406-------1,171----------234
    6th---2,343--------937--------703---------585----------117
    7th---1,171--------468---------351--------292------------58
    8th-----585--------234---------175--------146------------29
    9th-----292--------117----------87----------78------------14
    10th----146----------58----------43----------39-------------7
    11th-----73----------29----------21----------19-------------3
    12th-----36----------14----------10-----------9--------------1
    13th-----18-----------7------------5-----------4
    14th-------9-----------3------------2-----------2
    15th-------4
    16th-------2
    17th-------1


    All right, what would these numbers say. If we take into account the fact that blooded abilities allowed the survivors of Deismaar to climb to power much faster than the rest of the population I believe it is safe to assume that all (or most) character of level 9+ are blooded. This gives me the possibility to play with the numbers.

    Firstly I'll disregard the 15-17th level as these are easily the Gorgon, Rhuobhe, the Chamberlain, HMA etc.

    I'll take clerics as the group of interest since Juan and I were discussing how and why the humans defeated the elves with "overwhelming clerical magic" as it says in Anuirean history. There are 136 clerics here capable of casting 5th level spells (9-11) 13 for 6th level and 2 for the 7th level. In the days of the Empire this would probably have been the patriarch of the Imperial Temple and the patriarch/matriarch of Nesire?

    In total that's 151 clerics capable of raising the dead (of course, some don't get the necromancy sphere etc but its still impressive).

    In the lower level group the numbers get enormous. Almost 5,000 capable of 2nd level magic, 1600 of 3rd level and 450 of 4th level. Now that's an army Smile I guess that even if a portion of this great force is used against an elven kingdom to support the human fighters it can be devastating, especially if high level fighters or mages can be brought back to life.

    For peacetime conditions..

    The total number of provinces in Anuire is about..140 or so (I'm too lazy to count). This means that there can be an 8th level cleric in each of them, a 9th level for every two, a 10th level for every 4 and an 11th level cleric for each of the twelve duchies (with a few excess). Of course these would be split between the various faiths and sects, but the total is still interesting.

    This excercise in math seems to indicate one thing.

    At any time a realm like Avanil, Ghoere, Boeruine, Diemed... could have access to a mid level (9-11) fighter, rogue (perhaps) or priest.
    This would also explain why someone like Avanil wouldn't have to fear adventurers or assassins that much: If your personal guard is composed of 6-10 7th level fighters (and someone like Avan could afford it) with a 10th level captain, then throw in the court chaplain, a 9th level priest, and perhaps a 7th level magician (or wizard) this comes close to resemble the fantasy model we're used to in other settings. Of course, each of these is entitled to demand a salary and I wouldn't be surprised if the bodyguards alone were to cost more than a company of knights but heck, some people can afford it Wink

    So when Joe the Chaotic Evil adventurer tries to whack a prince of Avanil he can get stomped real easy by his guard (7th level fighters are a force to be reckoned with in a low magic world) or the bodyguard, even without the magica assistance of the spellcasters. Much more plausible than a world in which everyone seems to be either 0 level or low level.


    Any thoughts?
    Which rules set are you using for clerics?

    In 2nd ed the only clerics (IIRC) in Cerilia that could raise dead (had access tomajor necromancy) were: Nesirie, Sera, Kreisha and Ruornil.

    Kreisha was pretty much non-existant in Anuire (except for Osoerde), Ruornil was very rare - except for Moedore and a temple in Roesone (IIRC).

    Also in the Book Of Priestcraft it lays out the "typcal breakdown" of temples with the relationship of number of spellcasting priests (IIRC) and theswe numbers are much lower than the ones you are mentioning.


    Philosophically we put out things relating to raising the dead in the BRCS:

    Resurrection

    Resurrection is a rare occurrence in Cerilia. Although it is certainly possible to Raise Dead, most clerics are loath to do so. Firstly, death is assumed to be the providence of the gods. Only in the most unusual circumstances (and for the greater good) would most clerics choose to interfere with the will of the gods and rip a soul from its place of earned reward or punishment.

    Secondly, when a scion dies, the vital energy of their bloodline is released at the moment of their death and absorbed by those nearby. A resurrected character's bloodline is gone forever. They have no bloodline score and are not a scion. They can certainly attempt to gain a new bloodline through investiture or bloodtheft, but their original bloodline can never be restored.

    Lastly, when a regent dies, their domain passes to their heir (or becomes uncontrolled if they have no designated heir). The resurrected character is no longer a regent. Another now claims the gold and regency of the domain that they once held. History has shown that resurrecting a scion often leads to tragic events as the resurrected party is tempted to engage in bloodtheft to reclaim a birthright they feel is rightfully theirs. In order to reclaim their domain, a resurrected regent would need to somehow obtain a bloodline and re-invest their old realm from its current regent (their heir).

    The potential for internecine war is not taken lightly in Cerilia (particularly in Anuire) and thus most churches (including the church of Haelyn) have dire prohibitions against the resurrection of regent characters. Likewise many churches forbid the use of resurrection magic on philosophical grounds. Most sects of Erik and Belinik, for example, perceive death as part of the natural order, albeit from different perspectives.


    Duane Eggert

  4. #24
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    I was using raise dead as an example spell for 5th level. It wasn't my intention to determine the exact number of casters for any particular deity. If I really wanted to do that I'd add up all the temple holdings levels in BoP, calculate the percentage of temples of a single god and find out what the exact share is.

    As for the demographics table, I didn't have High Level Campaign when I did it, but now I found it. Its even higher than what I calculated.

    Table 1:
    Demographics

    General Character Approx. No.
    Population Level in 1,000,000
    10 1 1st 133,120
    20 1 2nd 66,560
    40 1 3rd 33,280
    80 1 4th 16,640
    160 1 5th 8,320
    320 1 6th 4,160
    640 1 7th 2,080
    1,380 1 8th 1,040
    2,560 1 9th 512
    5,120 1 10th 256
    10,240 1 11th 128
    20,480 1 12th 64
    40,960 1 13th 32
    81,920 1 14th 16
    163,840 1 15th 8
    326,680 1 16th 4
    655,360 1 17th 2
    1,310,720 1 18th 1


    This gives 768 9th level characters in a 1.5 million population (the standard 2e estimate). Perhaps my estimate that the clerics comprise 25% is wrong, maybe its 10%? That would still give 76 clerics. I assume that at least 10% of these would be Nesirien priests in Anuire, as one of the three ruling gods of the Anuirean pantheon. Few of Serra, because of the power of CJS, and maybe 1 or 2 of Ruornil.

    I agree with your thoughts on resurrection. Even these priests would only consider in under extreme circumstances.

    As for BoP, I honestly don't understand the logic behind it. I always considered the level distribution in the Priest's Handbook as a guideline for this issue. Since level/spellcasting power is a measure of the God's favor it seems reasonable that high priests and patriarchs should be among the highest level possible, which is true in the case of WIT and IHH.

    Here's an excerpt from the PH

    "Level Ten-Level Twelve

    Sometime between tenth and twelfth levels, the priest may find himself promoted to prominence over a much larger area; he will be administering a bigger chunk of the religious "map." Priests of numerous cities and regions in his vicinity (at least a fifty-mile radius) will be reporting to him, and of course he will still be reporting to his superiors. By twelfth level, he may be the high priest over an entire nation (assuming that the faith spans several nations, as many faiths do).
    He does not, however, receive any more followers.

    Level Thirteen-Level Fifteen

    The most powerful of a faith's leaders belong to these experience levels: The high priest of the faith and his immediate advisors. If the DM wishes, politics or the god's preference alone may decide who the high priest is, and the high priest might then not have to be the highest-level priest of the faith. The faith's high priest might be chosen by vote or omen, and could be a thirteenth-level priest while all his immediate advisors are of higher"


    Blood may be a detriment in this case, so perhaps a few levels can be deducted to make up for the lack of both experienced (I prefer favoured) AND blooded priests, but having a P4 lead the faith is IMO ridiculous.

    BoP gives the explanation that "many important administrators and temple heads are 0-level characters" but I don't buy that. To me that seems like a quick and ill-thought rationalization to prevent "inbalance" between party members and to allow for priest regents to adventure with fighter regents. Unfortunately, priests get ELECTED to their posts, whereas a fighter might become duke simply because his father got killed in a "goblin hunting accident."

    Priest regents are supposed to be old, first and foremost, old and wise and experienced. Having a sect of Haelyn run by a 25 year old is possible and amazing - and probably would create interesting roleplaying opportunities at conclaves, but having Anuire infested with 20-30 year old 4th level clerics or 4th level 60 year-olds is incredible and silly.
    Last edited by Robbie; 09-07-2005 at 12:30 PM.

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    Blooded characters in Anuire

    In a message dated 9/6/05 10:36:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
    brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

    << My guess is that they would go for 2-3 sons at least (with as many
    daughters as "collateral products") giving them one heir, one replacement, and a
    priest. The designers of Birthright probably did this on purpose to avoid
    alliances, >>

    IMO, this was one of the greatest failings of the regional books-- no
    family alliances anywhere, and almost no mention of kids/heirs to the regents. I
    realize this may have been to leave it open to DMs to create, but that sure
    made a steep pile of stuff to make up.

    Lee.

  6. #26
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Robbie,


    I would never use the High Level Campaign mold for any BR comparisions. As many people have pointed out the campaign was at best a mid-level one with most of the major NPCs only being in the low to teens in levels.

    One reason that the BoP numbers differ from the Priest Handbook is IMO the difference of the setting itself. BR more than any other setting was totally ingrained in politics. This translates into jockying for power via many means other than sheer level-based power. This would explain a lot of the differences especially in Anuire where it is a very classed based society splitting the haves and have-nots drastically.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #27
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    IMO, this was one of the greatest failings of the regional books-- no family alliances anywhere, and almost no mention of kids/heirs to the regents. I realize this may have been to leave it open to DMs to create, but that sure made a steep pile of stuff to make up.

    Lee.
    The PS of Roesone has some alliances in the family tree. The Roesone family has married into the Ballamie family (originally Aerenwe), the Elin family (originally Deimed, now Medoere), the Tuor family (Tuornen, also related to the current duchess), and the Isilviere family (local Roesone nobles). Marlae was unmarried and I assume has her brother as heir, but she has a cousin and 2nd cousin to choose from.

    From the other books, Alam has a daughter and two nephews (or nieces, can't remember which). Rogr Aglondier just has the one daughter, but from another branch of the bloodline there are three triplets (16 years old) living as farmers. Tuornen just has the duchess, but is related by marriage (couple of generations back) to the Tuor family who have children (although not mentioned how many). The Endier family suffered an unfortunately attack of daggers, but before they were wiped out there were marriages into the Cariele (Coeranys) and other noble families and the last generation had 3 children. Probably other from more distant branches of the family going back a few generations that are alive and well.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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    Blooded characters in Anuire

    But these are pretty much the sole examples, and they were in the PS
    books. Other PS books, and the regional books had just about nothing. Barely
    anything is mentioned with respect to political alliances as a result of these
    mariages. Are there any vassalages?

    Lee.

    In a message dated 9/7/05 2:23:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
    brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

    << The PS of Roesone has some alliances in the family tree. The Roesone
    family has married into the Ballamie family (originally Aerenwe), the Elin family
    (originally Deimed, now Medoere), the Tuor family (Tuornen, also related to the
    current duchess), and the Isilviere family (local Roesone nobles). Marlae was
    unmarried and I assume has her brother as heir, but she has a cousin and 2nd
    cousin to choose from.

    From the other books, Alam has a daughter and two nephews (or nieces, can`t
    remember which). Rogr Aglondier just has the one daughter, but from another
    branch of the bloodline there are three triplets (16 years old) living as
    farmers. Tuornen just has the duchess, but is related by marriage (couple of
    generations back) to the Tuor family who have children (although not mentioned how
    many). The Endier family suffered an unfortunately attack of daggers, but before
    they were wiped out there were marriages into the Cariele (Coeranys) and
    other noble families and the last generation had 3 children. Probably other from
    more distant branches of the family going back a few generations that are alive
    and well. >>

  9. #29
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Lee]But these are pretty much the sole examples, and they were in the PS
    books. Other PS books, and the regional books had just about nothing. Barely
    anything is mentioned with respect to political alliances as a result of these
    mariages. Are there any vassalages?

    I believe that this was left up to the player/DM to decide. However, the new Atlas will list current vassalage agreements, alliances, etc. Well, to a certain extent anyway, we aren't going to give entire family trees and list who married who going back for twenty generations, but any alliance or vassalage agreement will be listed. Of course, you are free to ignore what is written, but it will be there for you to use if you want to.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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    There is something about the bloodlines that no one has explained yet: the fact that a bloodline is created out of nothing when a baby is born. If a bloodline is a fraction of the power of the ancient gods, why it appears from "the air" when a baby is born, with the *same power* of the parents??? At least if it was like in Vampire (not that I like this game, btw), in which each generation of vampires is weaker than the one before it... Or the parents could lose a bit of their power each time they had a child.

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