Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 38
  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    37
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Blooded characters in Anuire

    Let us assume that a dukal family like Avan, Boeruine, Diemed, Alam etc, all of them having an average blood around 45 has 3 sons, 3 daughters (with clerical magic the survival rate of kids should be much greater than our historic version), one of which inherits the throne and the rest get married to fellow peers or vassals to cement alliances.

    Looking at over a millenium of imperial history and considering that even if some noble families were unbloodes in the beginning - the stupidest scenario - peasant hero rescues Avan and gets the princes and half the throne - i.e. his son would have Anduiras major 30. - I think it is reasonable to assume that every noble in Anuire would be blooded by now, as lesser blooded families further married to other unblooded families and so on.

    My argument is that every province in Anuire (a county) would have at least one ruling noble family, whereas the City of Anuire, Endier, Ilien, Daulton, Seasedge etc could have dozens.

    Taking into account all the 3rd sons of the 3rd sons and all the bastards that nobles sire with peasant girls (if this is sexist I apologize in advance, but I'm using cliches and historical parallels) how many blooded individuals would be out there really?

    If the nobility comprises about 5% of the population I would say that after a thousand years there would be at least 10% of blooded people in Anuire, which amounts to a whole lot. I

    Some estimates I've found on the net place the total population to about 1,5 million, or the population of England during William I

    5% = 75,000 blooded characters
    10% (my, admittedly arbitrary assumption about the distribution of blood in the peasantry) = 150,000

    Of course, the vast majority of these bloodlines would be tainted and minor (rulebook gives 25 % for tainted and 50% minor, but this is of course, because PCs already come from established bloodlines), with 20-30 major bloodlines and only a few percent of great ones on the global scale these would probably ne only the select and known few)

    50% tainted
    51-85% minor
    86-99% major

    that would be my suggestion but its not very relevant to the matter.

    What I am implying is a picture vastly different than what the setting seems to portray. Blooded characters would definitely not be that rare.

    Why Even if an Avan with 70 were to repeatedly marry commoners the generations would give 35/17/8/4/2/1 With only 3 kids per generation that's 486 people in the final generation. Cut half for accidents and childless and you get 240+ tainted blooded families.

    I don't think however that a civilized society woud tolerate highlander behavior and the destruction of bloodlines through bloodtheft for long, really, and forced divestiture seems equally evil and chaotic

    So... Is Anuire an empire with 30 blooded families or 10,000?

    Since all guilders in Anuire are blooded and none or very few seem to be nobles it is safe to assume that there is a good number of those as well. Howere a number of 100,000 blooded characters seems to ba safe estimate

    Here is another thing that's been weighing on my mind. The levels of the characters.

    Let's assume once again that 5% of the population have levels. (ie. aren't 0-level nobodies). Additionaly I'll assume that 30% of the blooded population have levels. Although one can argue (as it states in BoP) that 0 level characters can be administrators in temple holdings, I have yet to find a single 0 or 1st level regent in Birthright). Consequently it seems that blooded characters are "destined" for great things, making thm more prone to choosing classes. Since the primary duty of a noble is either to fight or pray, this seems reasonable. (All knights train since the age of 7)

    5% of the general population is 150,000, 30,000 of which are blooded (30% of the blooded 100,000)

    I don't have the book on me here that deals with the demographics (High Level Campaign I think) but I remember that the general distribution of characters was something like this

    40% fiighters
    30% rogues
    25% clerics
    5% wizards/magicians (probably at a ratio of 1:5)

    Level distribution is progressive (not sure about the term, but the point is that 1/2 is 1st level and then 1/2 of that 2nd etc)


    level--total-----fighters----rogues-----clerics-----mages
    1st--75,000-----30,000-----22,500-----18,750------3,750
    2nd-37,500-----15,000-----11,250------9,375-------1,875
    3rd-18,750------7,500------5,625-------4,687---------937
    4th---9,375------3,750------2,812-------2,343---------468
    5th---4,687------1,875------1,406-------1,171----------234
    6th---2,343--------937--------703---------585----------117
    7th---1,171--------468---------351--------292------------58
    8th-----585--------234---------175--------146------------29
    9th-----292--------117----------87----------78------------14
    10th----146----------58----------43----------39-------------7
    11th-----73----------29----------21----------19-------------3
    12th-----36----------14----------10-----------9--------------1
    13th-----18-----------7------------5-----------4
    14th-------9-----------3------------2-----------2
    15th-------4
    16th-------2
    17th-------1


    All right, what would these numbers say. If we take into account the fact that blooded abilities allowed the survivors of Deismaar to climb to power much faster than the rest of the population I believe it is safe to assume that all (or most) character of level 9+ are blooded. This gives me the possibility to play with the numbers.

    Firstly I'll disregard the 15-17th level as these are easily the Gorgon, Rhuobhe, the Chamberlain, HMA etc.

    I'll take clerics as the group of interest since Juan and I were discussing how and why the humans defeated the elves with "overwhelming clerical magic" as it says in Anuirean history. There are 136 clerics here capable of casting 5th level spells (9-11) 13 for 6th level and 2 for the 7th level. In the days of the Empire this would probably have been the patriarch of the Imperial Temple and the patriarch/matriarch of Nesire?

    In total that's 151 clerics capable of raising the dead (of course, some don't get the necromancy sphere etc but its still impressive).

    In the lower level group the numbers get enormous. Almost 5,000 capable of 2nd level magic, 1600 of 3rd level and 450 of 4th level. Now that's an army Smile I guess that even if a portion of this great force is used against an elven kingdom to support the human fighters it can be devastating, especially if high level fighters or mages can be brought back to life.

    For peacetime conditions..

    The total number of provinces in Anuire is about..140 or so (I'm too lazy to count). This means that there can be an 8th level cleric in each of them, a 9th level for every two, a 10th level for every 4 and an 11th level cleric for each of the twelve duchies (with a few excess). Of course these would be split between the various faiths and sects, but the total is still interesting.

    This excercise in math seems to indicate one thing.

    At any time a realm like Avanil, Ghoere, Boeruine, Diemed... could have access to a mid level (9-11) fighter, rogue (perhaps) or priest.
    This would also explain why someone like Avanil wouldn't have to fear adventurers or assassins that much: If your personal guard is composed of 6-10 7th level fighters (and someone like Avan could afford it) with a 10th level captain, then throw in the court chaplain, a 9th level priest, and perhaps a 7th level magician (or wizard) this comes close to resemble the fantasy model we're used to in other settings. Of course, each of these is entitled to demand a salary and I wouldn't be surprised if the bodyguards alone were to cost more than a company of knights but heck, some people can afford it Wink

    So when Joe the Chaotic Evil adventurer tries to whack a prince of Avanil he can get stomped real easy by his guard (7th level fighters are a force to be reckoned with in a low magic world) or the bodyguard, even without the magica assistance of the spellcasters. Much more plausible than a world in which everyone seems to be either 0 level or low level.


    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,357
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    The population of Anuire (if you add all the individual realm populations together) is closer to 6 million. That is using a revised population table, with the population density designed to match RL equivalents (Anuire = 14th century france).

    You are essentially correct, there are going to be a lot more scions than the 2,000 mentioned in the original material. However, looking at your arguments, there are a couple of things to consider.

    1. You are starting from a very low number of scions, the survivors of Deismaar. Most of those who went to Deismaar were killed, either during the fighting, in the explosion of the mountain, or in the conflict imediately afterwards. Understandable this number has increased over the years, but at the same time some bloodlines have vanished, or been killed off. Most likely the number of scions is now static (not increasing), and has been for some time.

    2. There are only three ways a bloodline can increase, through bloodtheft, by ruling a domain, or through careful marriage. The strong bloodlines you see today have been passed on from generation to generation.

    Looking at your Avanil example. You need to take it one step further. In the next generation, those 486 people become unblooded, thus their bloodlines fade away all together. So yes, there probably are a fair number of low level bloodlines out there, and some people will not even know they are blooded because they don't exhibit any blood abilties (bloodline < 20 = no blood abilities).

    However, you cannot say that every noble will be blooded. For example, Avanil most likely has nobles running each province, town, etc. (Counts, Baron, mayors, etc). Now, assuming a family was given that honour generations ago when they were blooded, that does not mean they are still scions now. Their bloodline may have faded away over that time, as they have no way to maintain it, except through very careful breeding and even then it is likely destined to drop.

    Those families who do have strong bloodline are going to be always interbreeding (like the royals of europe to ensure that their children have the strongest bloodlines around and for political reasons. If the three strongest bloodlines in Anuire are Avan with 70, Boeruine with 60, and Dosiere with 64, then anyone they marry is going to have a lower bloodline, definitely lower than 60, most likely in the 40-50 range. So Avan's children are going to have bloodlines in the 55-60 range. Assuming only one child becomes regent (and gets the bloodline of 70), the others are going to marry scions with lower bloodlines, which like marrying commoners, will decrease their bloodline. Then after another generation or two, they probably start marrying commoners and that branch of the Avan bloodline fades away.

    As long as they keep marrying other scions, the bloodline survives (although probably at a lower level), but once they marry into common blood, the bloodline will fade away in 4-6 generations.

    3. Bloodtheft. On top of normal accidents, disease, etc, there are also people in Anuire and elsewhere who are very keen on hunting down other scions and taking their bloodlines. A smart bloodthefter is always going to look for the most powerful scion they can kill, thus further weakening the bloodlines of Anuire.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    37
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    True, untended bloodlines would fade away over generations. However, it seems to me that, just as our medieval heralds kept a detailed record of the many noble bloodlines, that the nobles of Anuire would do the same.

    I assume that there is some way of knowing or noticing that a bloodline has lost in strength - i.e. the sons do not posess the father's famed charm aura for example. By marrying a daughter of someone with a stronger bloodline the child would have an increased bloodline (though it would perhaps change to the mother's derivation, if different).

    Families of great and major bloodlines would seek to have as many children as possible, and daughters especially have a major function here. Since, as you said, Avan's children would have a bloodline of around 50-60 they would not be much of a threat to the ruling Prince, but they would be a great asset to the family in general, and excellent marriage partners. More than one House would want an Avanese daughter in their household, and not only for the sake of alliance.

    As Avans of second third and fourth generation marry into lesser houses (let us say unblooded) their blood strength would dwindle, but after a few generations these would again marry to new Avans with powerful bloodlines (and perhaps lesser nobles from other realms with bloodlines), thus regaining some of their lost power.

    1st generation 55
    2nd generation 45 (marries again a member of a powerful house since 55 is not a bad marriage partner at all
    3rd generation 35 (45 is still eligible to marry a Mhor or Alam, but I assume that it dwindles a bit)
    4th generation 25 (marries someone of lesser status - provincial count - ruler of one province)
    5th generation 40 (parent again marries an Avan of 55 - replenishing the strength of the family and providing a new set of children to marry other families of 20-30, slowing down the dwindling)

    This would probably be better explained by some kind of graph or formula but I am completely inapt at math

    In any case, with a healthy dose of children (4-6) which in a fantasy setting with clerical magic shouldn't be a problem, I believe that all higher nobles (dukes, barons, counts - even those without domains) would be blooded, and as well as the majority of the lesser nobility.

    A single heroic deed of a knight with a tainded line and the acquisition of an Avanese princess (as improbable as that may be) could infuse such a great amount of power into a lesser noble and spread throughout the province as their children ( lets say 12+55 = 33) marry into other minor and tainted lines, strengthening these in turn.

    My original number was probably too high, but I would argue that there are several thousand blooded families in Anuire, most of them, of course, of minor and tainted strength

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Porto Alegre, Brazil
    Posts
    113
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    the system is flawed

    There is one problem with the bloodline rules of the Birthright setting. IMC I haven't fixed this because it doesn't bothers me... but if you are going to argue about the number of blooded families, then it must be taken into account. I'm speaking about the fact that bloodlines "pop" out of nothing when a children is born. When you have a father with a bloodline score of 20, and a mother with a score of 50, you have a total of 70 points. If they have a children, the baby will have a score of 35. Suddenly, you have a total 0f 105, 35 points more of bloodline in the world...

    Come on! What impedes a noble of having 10 bastard childrens, with peasant girls, and then killing all of them??? Even if all the mothers are commoners, each baby will have a bloodline equal to one-half of the father's bloodline. This is sufficient, according to the BRCS rules, to always increase the father's bloodline by one point. One point for each killed son...

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,357
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    True, untended bloodlines would fade away over generations. However, it seems to me that, just as our medieval heralds kept a detailed record of the many noble bloodlines, that the nobles of Anuire would do the same.
    This would seem very likely, especially in Anuire. In the other lands, maybe not so much, but in Anuire there would be something like this.

    I assume that there is some way of knowing or noticing that a bloodline has lost in strength - i.e. the sons do not posess the father's famed charm aura for example. By marrying a daughter of someone with a stronger bloodline the child would have an increased bloodline (though it would perhaps change to the mother's derivation, if different).
    The loss of blood abilities (charm aura, etc) is the most obvious way to see a lose of bloodline power. Of course, one problem is that every noble in Anuire is likely looking for the most powerfully blooded daughter or son available to marry their child to, so there would be a lot of competition and then politics would enter into it.

    Suprisingly, this rarely gets seen in BR campaigns I've experienced. For example, in a pbem I'm currently playing in, there is no attempt what so ever to improve the bloodlines and people are marrying commoners or bastards. The result is that the next generation will have a much reduced bloodlines. It is more realistic to assume that marriages between the noble houses will only occur for political or bloodline reasons, so to either improve an alliance, or to improve a bloodline, better yet both at the same time.

    Families of great and major bloodlines would seek to have as many children as possible, and daughters especially have a major function here. Since, as you said, Avan's children would have a bloodline of around 50-60 they would not be much of a threat to the ruling Prince, but they would be a great asset to the family in general, and excellent marriage partners. More than one House would want an Avanese daughter in their household, and not only for the sake of alliance.

    As Avans of second third and fourth generation marry into lesser houses (let us say unblooded) their blood strength would dwindle, but after a few generations these would again marry to new Avans with powerful bloodlines (and perhaps lesser nobles from other realms with bloodlines), thus regaining some of their lost power.
    I don't see that they would necessarily marry back into the Avan family again in the future. There are only going to be a few really powerful scions of each generation, so marriages between scions with bloodlines of 40+ are going to be fairly rare. The only scions who are going to have these levels of bloodlines are the children of the major dukes and kings. In Anuire, this means scions of the Avan, Dosirie, Boeruine, Diem, Mierelen, Tael, Mhoried, Alam, Daouta, and Dhoesone families. And of those, only the Avan, Dosirie, and Boeruine families are going to have children with bloodlines of 40-50, the rest are going to be around 30-40, unless they marry into one of the other families with higher level bloodlines, and I don't think there are going to be a lot of marriages between Avanil and Boeruine, etc. A marriage between the Mierelen and Avan families is possible though, as they are allies.

    In any case, with a healthy dose of children (4-6) which in a fantasy setting with clerical magic shouldn't be a problem, I believe that all higher nobles (dukes, barons, counts - even those without domains) would be blooded, and as well as the majority of the lesser nobility.
    If you use the brief guide in the Roesone PS book (written by Rich Baker), the nobility of Anuire is said to include.

    Emperor + Princes
    12 Archduke + Dukes
    3-10 Baron/duke
    3-10 counts/Baron
    10-100 minor lords for each higher noble.

    This gives you a rough total of around 10,000 to 15,000 or so nobles in Anuire, and that doesn't include their immediate families.

    The family sizes you mentioned of 4-6, although I agree they aren't unrealistic, don't match up with the information presented in the BR books (either the core books, or the PS books). Most are listed with 1-4 children, not 4-6. I believe that nobles would traditionally have fewer children than commoners as well.

    Also, most family marry within their own realms, political marriages to more powerful families are rare. Take the Roesone example from the PS of Roesone. That family has had four political marriages in its short history, 2 internal, 2 external. Both the external marriages have been to families roughly the same bloodline (or lower) than theirs. The rest of the marriages have been to commoners (no family name listed). That is 50% of the marriages to commoners.

    As for all nobles being blooded. All major nobles (Counts, Barons, Dukes, etc) are almost certainly blooded. Minor lords may not be.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    aberdeen, scotland
    Posts
    281
    Downloads
    87
    Uploads
    0
    I seem to remember that blooded individuals dont breed properly its like they have low sperm counts. They dont have as many children and twins etc are less frequent. I cant remember where this was mentioned and dont have the time to look it up but they arn't realy human anymore they are something different.

    Nothing stops someone from having bastard children and then killing them and there is a whole series of adventures for you. People finding out what the guy is doing would have bad results well unless you were in some nasty places like the gorgons crown. Just have the pc as one of the children who escapes or characters who fidn out about it.
    MORNINGSTAR

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,357
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Justine
    Come on! What impedes a noble of having 10 bastard childrens, with peasant girls, and then killing all of them??? Even if all the mothers are commoners, each baby will have a bloodline equal to one-half of the father's bloodline. This is sufficient, according to the BRCS rules, to always increase the father's bloodline by one point. One point for each killed son...
    Time for one thing. Bloodlines don't manifest until puperty, so that is a good number of years to wait until you can go around and bloodtheft your children. Apart from that, nothing, but of course only the most evil scions would ever consider doing it. It just amazes me how many times this theory comes up.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    37
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Raesene Andu
    T
    The family sizes you mentioned of 4-6, although I agree they aren't unrealistic, don't match up with the information presented in the BR books (either the core books, or the PS books). Most are listed with 1-4 children, not 4-6. I believe that nobles would traditionally have fewer children than commoners as well.
    It difficult to give an answer to this question, since this really depends on circumstance. Medieval nobility had lots of kids. Noble families in Central and Eastern Europe I did my reasearch on had many children (one count had nine sons alone, another had 3 sons and 3 daughters etc), which was a phenomenon that was largely dependent on their obsession with the continuation of the dynasty - producing enough male heirs to ensure the succession. Even this did not help in many occasions. The reason why the Habsburgs managed to become the most powerful dynasty in Europe in the fifteenth century was the "defunctus semi" or the failure of the seed of their rivals. Internally the last Count of Cilli was assassinated in 1456 (his two sons died before him) which prevented the disintegration of Habsburg lands in Styria and Carintia, and "externally" Charles the Bold of Burgundy dies in 1477, also without a male heir - bringing the Burgundian inheritance to the Habsburgs. In 1526, the young Hungarian king Louis II Jagielo also died without an heir, leaving the throne of Hungary to the Habsburgs
    This doesn't mean that they weren't trying to obtain children, but those kids didn't make it.
    Its also difficult even to establish the exact numbers as usually only the successor is remembered, and daughters vanish from historical records, so only bits an pieces remain.

    The problem is two-fold. On the one hand there is clerical magic to prevent infant deaths, disease etc (the nobles at least should be able to afford it), but at the same time, nobles would probably not feel urged to "make" many children if they can count on the survivability.

    My guess is that they would go for 2-3 sons at least (with as many daughters as "collateral products") giving them one heir, one replacement, and a priest. The designers of Birthright probably did this on purpose to avoid alliances, but I think it would be appropriate for an Avan (probably uncle or something, due to age needed for church positions) to be in the top echelons of the WIT, if not even the patriarch himself. As it is, there isn't a single temple regent who is a member of any of the dukal families, which I find odd. Since in the medieval mindset the family members are the only one's you can trust (depends of course), powerful families would seek to maneouver their relatives into positions of power in the church. Thirs sons were usually destined to end up there.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    california
    Posts
    317
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Raesene Andu
    Time for one thing. Bloodlines don't manifest until puperty, so that is a good number of years to wait until you can go around and bloodtheft your children. Apart from that, nothing, but of course only the most evil scions would ever consider doing it. It just amazes me how many times this theory comes up.
    13 years isn't long to wait, but if I was a neutral regent I would give a substantial sum of money and a position (non hereditary) to each of those bastard children that underwent an investure ceremony to transfer thier bloodline to me. Over several generations this would see a substantial improvement in my families bloodline.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  10. #10
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,357
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jew
    13 years isn't long to wait, but if I was a neutral regent I would give a substantial sum of money and a position (non hereditary) to each of those bastard children that underwent an investure ceremony to transfer thier bloodline to me. Over several generations this would see a substantial improvement in my families bloodline.
    This would still probably be looked on as a fairly evil act, denying your children their birthright. Being blooded is a fairly big deal in Cerilia, it makes you someone and gives you the potential to rule. It is a very risky thing to suddenly start asking for your children's bloodlines to boost yours. What if one of them is the captain of a mercenary company with a few units under his command?

    Besides, the main reason why bloodlines have not increased vastly is that the family bloodline is not always transferred on a regent's death. Setting up a heir to take over the domain is easy, transferring the regent's bloodline is not if the regent dies suddenly on the battlefield, or away from a priest. And both the regent and heir need to be present for the transfer to occur. In many cases the new regent will have a reduced bloodline over the old.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.