Help with plot

[Darrius]

The best way to take out a single foe of any power is to neutralize their Stengths while exploiting their weaknesses.

Wizards and Mages
Strengths:
Offensive Magic A+ rating (at each level there is at least one spell of significant damage)
Deffensive Magic C (most levels have a decent defense spell, but some lack defensive capability save for terrain control).
Movement Magic A (Between Gate, Teleport W/O Error, and Expetitious Retreat cornering a mage is hard.)

Weaknesses
Wizards (3/3.5E):
Low Reflex and Fortitude saves (AoE and Destruction style spells)
Usually low Armor Class
Low Physical Attributes (in general)
Limited Spell casting (X number of spells level Y)

Mages (1/2E):
Low Armor Class
Poor Weapon Selection
Poor Physical Attacks.
Limited Spell casting (X number of spells level Y)


Rules of neutralizing wizards and mages:
1. Never ever ever attack a Mage or Wizard in their home terrain, it will almost invariably be a nigh on impossible assault.
2. Strike when the Mage/Wizard is relearning their spells (please note that with some variations of magic this will not work as they only rest to regain their spell points not their spells.
3. Be prepared for magic item arsenal.
4. Have a character with a high will save and a good attack (Cleric/Druid/Bard) to draw the initial attacks from the wizard (Bard is generally best as the second most common magic spell save is Reflex).

btw with the questions:

was there any blood? blood spray patterns, about how much blood and in what rooms, pools of blood.

Blood Spray patterns in the time of Middle Ages would be hard, if not impossible, to accurately track, and the summations modern science and math allows would not be available (to dervire it they use computers to track backwards each drop of blood).

anything out of place, missing.

This requires either someone to know what could be missing, or personal knowledge of HMA , which your players are not likely to have. Unless you allow wisdom checks for the Feeling of something missing.

2 out of my 6 players watch way too much Court TV, Law and Order, and CSI.

The problem is other than Court TV realism is a not strong suit of TV (Court TV's is only when its an actual trial). Such as CSI: Miami's penchant for diving into the bays of Miami and coming up with the weapons/bodies they need. In fact, all the CSI (except NCIS) type shows are based more on a philosphy that every interaction exchanges information between the two bodies interacting. Which isn't always the case.

Anyway onto your villians.

The only true given I have in this story sofar is that I want a charismatic villan to move in on southeastern anuire, and he is so deceptive that he's not even recognized as a villan at first, and he neutralizes the threat of HMA because 1)he covets the sources, and 2)when you're trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the surrounding nations, the last thing you need is a powerful wizard in your backyard. He is to be an Awnsheghlien or blooded from Azrai but he is good at masquerading as a saviour. And not an existing one, because my players read too many of the printed campaign materials.

My humble suggestion for a Villian Team based upon a good charismatic team and keeping a certain low level feel for BRness.

(Khin or Half Elven) Level 6 Sorcerer/Level 3 Rouge/Level X Arcane Trickster (X being however high level -9 you start him at (I suggest starting him at 3 and keep him at Party Level +2 after that ). Have him grow into an Awsh, as the party advances.

(Daughter same race as main bad guy) Level X wizard or Sorcerer, adding on Archmage once possible all five levels. She will be the bad girl for borderline Epic battles (18ish).

Half Elven Level 6 Bard/Level X Arcance Archer Keep this one at party level +1.5-2 until his/her final interaction around level 12

Brecht Level 3 Rouge/Level 3 Fighter/Level X Dueliest. (Keep him below ninth level using him as you first BBEG and primary Bad Guy until level nineish.)

This will give you a campaign with deceptions mounted on deception (as the low level rouge/fighter can appear bad enough to catch HMA off guard, but some minor clue leads them to the bard et cetra), a strong caster for BBEG (two actually)

[Raesene Andu]

about your question on what types of questions they will ask. Knowing them from past experiences some possible examples would be.

Well, if these are the sort of questions they are going to ask then you can really steer then in any direction you want, plant clues about a possible attackers, or just lead them down a false path.

Of course most of the answers depend on if the encounter between the High Mage and his assailants takes place in his home or outdoors and if they kill him or he is just imprisoned on the shadow world, also how many attackers there were and so forth. I'll give you a few possible answers, but if your players are going to examine the scene very thoroughly then you can steer them any way you want quite easily with a few false clues.

was the area trapped
were the trapps bypassed
were some left untriggered

Outdoor: Not going to be trapped, so not relevant.

At home: Well, now this is an interesting one. Personally I don't think the High Mage is a kind of wizard to go around littering his house with hundreds of deadly traps for the unwary. I see him as someone with a fairly simple home, not some elaborate wizards tower. He'll have a small library of book, a kitchen and bedroom and the like, but nothing much else. He probably relies on his reputation and his ranger allies to keep most enemies away and he doesn't really go out of his way to make enemies and if he does he is powerful enough to dispose of them quickly. He might have an alarm spell active and a few other magical defences, but I don't think he goes in for the elaborate instakill trap that so many wizard types seem to favour.

where was the possible entrance from
were there any footprints
signs of forced entry

Outdoor: If the attackers took down HMA outdoors, then they probably encountered him somewhere in the forest, maybe in a clearing, at one of his source holdings, or at an old elven ruin. Attack would have come from all directions at once.

Footprints could give an idea of the number of attackers in this case as if a battle had taken place there is going to have been people running around, sliding in muddy patches and the like.

At home: If you are using the Storm Tower or a simple tower as HMA's home, then I would probably go with a hidden or magical entrance, one that requires a series of knocks or a particular item to enter.

In my version of the Storm Tower it is a small stone tower near a stream. To enter you need to be HMA OR enter the stream and swim down in a deep pool and touch a hidden stone sitting beneath the water. This opens a hidden door. PCs scouting around might notice a mark in the dirt where the door has recently been opened and deduce that the entrance is there. Footprint in the dirt could also lead them to this spot, but they might not be able to get the door open.

If the door has been forced, then this would be obvious, but the assailants might also have used magical means to enter, I doubt that HMA would have taken the time to set up defences against this sort of thing if he wasn't thinking he would be attacked.

was there any blood? blood spray patterns, about how much blood and in what rooms, pools of blood.
any broken items/weapons/magic devises.

This can be misleading, especially if it was the attackers who were dying. If HMA took down a lot of low level attackers then there might be quite a lot of blood around. If he was ambushed and quickly overpowered there might be none at all. Also the enemy might have cleaned the site afterwards, removing all trace of the blood.

It is possible that if there was a long magical battle then there could be scorch marks, pools of acid, burnt funishings, etc from spells. You could even say the whole tower was destroyed and all that is left is a skeleton (one of the dead attackers) making it look like HMA killed himself in a failed experiment/spell.

It would be important to work out where you would like to lead your players (or mislead) and then set the scene from there. If you decide that HMA is dead, work out how he was killed, the number of attackers, what spells they did, what HMA's tower was like before the attack began and then work from there, even run through the whole battle step by step (don't bother rolling dice unless you really want to, just work out in what order events happened).

Even small events like what HMA was doing before the attackers arrive can leave clues for PCs to later find. Perhaps he was writing out a scroll and has four bottles of different coloured/quality ink on his desk. When he is attacked he jumps to his feet, knocking over one of the bottles. Days or weeks later when the PCs arrive to investigate the scene they might find the ink stain covering the scroll and desk and the other open bottles of ink that may have even begin to dry out or evaporate.

If someone cast a fireball some time during the battle, then there is going to be a large black scorch mark on the floor and walls. You can litter the scene with as many clues as you like. Perhaps the attackers even planted false clues, and I don't just mean a bent shield with the coat of arm of Osoerde on it or something like that. Intelligent villains should be fairly inventive. False evidence might lead the PCs off in a completely different direction all together.

any stray arrows

Something you might like to try if you are going for misleading is to place an arrow on the HMA desk or in his labratory, one with special markings or coloured fletchings that point towards say the Queen of Aerenwe. HMA might have been enchanting this arrow as a gift, which is why it is there, but the PCs might take it the wrong way and suspect an innocent party just because the arrow is there.

Even better, make it a crossbow bolt that the PCs find buried in the wall/door/wherever. This was fired by the HMA from a crossbow and bolts set he was enchanting for a friend. As they were magical they might have been stolen later by one of the attackers, but the bolt with its distinctive markings might remain.

anything out of place, missing.

Unlikely that the PCs would realise if there was, unless they knew HMA and had visited his home regularly.

any guess from angles/tragectories the number of assailants.

Laugh at them. I mean really, how are they going to know this?

Final word. In my opinion it is shows like CSI etc that are unbelievable, things just don't work that way in real life. It is unlikely that in a BR game anyone is going to be able to learn a lot about the attackers.

[tcharazazel]

Actually, if they are intelligent PCs then they easily could, for example if the job was done very professionally, ie almost none, if any clues left behind so it looks like the HMA just may have taken a vacation. Then we know we are dealing with someone with power and this would result in looking into what HMA had been doing recently to what the neighbors to Aerenwe have been doing to what the other source regents have been up to. As this person was able to hire some very elite group of assassins to take out or capture HMA.

If it was done in a semi-professional manner, ie some clues left around, then he had to deal with someone who either doesn’t have as much power here or didn't really care if they were found out. The latter is more disturbing as it could mean there is an assault planned or they are very confident and don't have anything to worry about from any type of repercussions.

If it was done unprofessionally, ie bunch of dead bodies still around, then yeah best to just look for the one set of foot prints that will likely be off too the side of the battle somewhere, as this was the person directing it and making certain that the horde took HMA down.

So, you can actually learn quite a bit about the attackers and those who may have hired them, when you search the area and look for every type of evidence you can find. Some, may just be difficult to follow, however, a very skilled tracker can likely see the footprints and follow where people stepped, how heavy they were, what type of shoes they were wearing, whether or not they had eaten recently, ECT. And if that is combined with some divining spells, it should be fairly easy to piece together what occurred.

[Darrius]

Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jun 20 2005, 08:18 AM
So, you can actually learn quite a bit about the attackers and those who may have hired them, when you search the area and look for every type of evidence you can find. Some, may just be difficult to follow, however, a very skilled tracker can likely see the footprints and follow where people stepped, how heavy they were, what type of shoes they were wearing, whether or not they had eaten recently, ECT. And if that is combined with some divining spells, it should be fairly easy to piece together what occurred.

Yes, through tracking and divination spells you can learn a lot about a given scene (especially divination spells when properly casted), but that doesn't give you a clue about what blood splattering does, nor really weight (beyond rough comparisons ie person A is heavier than B), as too much goes into how deep the footprint is (wetness of ground, distrubation of gear et cetra) and garning much information would be a higher DC (Given that Forensic experts often have 10+ years of training)

[ausrick]

HI everyone,

Thanks for all the suggestions, and if you guys have more keep them coming. It's all very fascinating and I like where all of you are thinking with this. It gives me a lot to go on.

thanks again and take care,
Ausrick

[irdeggman]

The problem I see is with the chacter of the villian. You sem towant a hihgly charismatic one.

Well, this doesn't really play well when dealing with an isolationist type charater like HMA. Very hard for people (the general population) to even know that HMA is "missing". Why would the PCs even bother to go to check it out in the first place?

It would work much better against, say Aglondier (i.e., Ilien) - who is a charismatic type of fellow and in the limelight.

[ausrick]

Thanks for the post Irdeggman,

I was thinking the PC's would only go looking for him after signs of the Erbannien going to pot start to arrise. The villan is after HMA's sources, but he doesn't really care about nature, just the power he can harnass from it. I was imagining that withough HMA in the picture that would leave a vaccuum in the forest that Swordwraith's Rangers could barely contain. As things get worse, and months and seasons have passed people will maybe start to wonder why hasn't HMA done anything about this? Meanwhile the villan has been making moves on guild and law holdings, probably using secret identities, all the while he's probably been giving money to charity and smoothtalking Swordwraith and the brothers Calwier.

Maybe he could also have the longterm goal of secretly getting Osoerde to invade Aerenwe and he could turn himself into a hero and savior while distracting everyone from his intentions all the while framing the brothers Cale and Cole for treason, getting them executed, and then moving into their place as heir appearant as he grows closer to Swordwraith. How far he could follow along with his plan would depend on how quickly the PC's could peice together the clues whether they could stop it all in time or if they would be too late, or maybe if they really aren't too with it, be oblivious to it even happening.

please tell me if you think this is a believable premise or not.

Thanks and take care,
Ausrick

[irdeggman]

What ruleset are you using? 2nd ed, BRCS, homebrewed (3.0/3.5/2nd ed)? The rules used determine the manner in which certain things play out.

Basically the premise doesn’t seem to fit real well to me. If the bad guy is gong to be diplomatic (i.e., suave and charming - typical Azrai thing) then going after a more public personality is more likely (again Aglondier).

If the bad guy wants HMA sources then he needs to contest and rule up to gain them or to convince HMA to invest him with them (something not real likely no matter how “powerful” you make the bad guy. If you make this what happens then basically HMA has been reduced to something a whole lot less than the “heroic” figure portrayed in the Shadow Stone, etc. Sets a bad precedent IMO). Simply killing HMA (even with a tighmaevril weapon through the heart will not give the killer the holdings. (BRRB pg 31 (2nd ed rules) and BRCS Ch 2 pg 10, 11 (3.0/3.5 rules)).


Destroying the Erbannien is something likely to cause notice by Lillian and then subsequently the entire southern coast. All regents have pretty much sworn to protect the last old forest. (Ruins of Empire (RoE) pg 12.)

Also sources (more accurately manifestations) are very hardy and resist damage more than does the regular forest around them. (BoM pgs 19, 20 and 22.)

Aglondier has substantial source holding in Aerenwe (Banien’s Deep, Northvale, Shadowgreen and Westmarch). (RoE pg 12).

[Lee]

Treachery is always useful-- does HMA have a servant/retainer/lieutenant
who can be paid off or compromised in some way? As for keeping it quiet,
there are the Simulacrum and Programmed Amnesia spells.
I can`t really speak to such high levels, I have never played past 10th
level since 1st edition AD&D days. They certainly seem to be un-BRish.

Lee.

[Birthright-L]

1) You know, a slighly more devilish alternative would be to get the
High Mage to trust your villain, negatng any need to eliminate him at
all. An aliance, a pact of blood, a mutual goal... the guy`s old
right? He might even have family around to exploit.

2) If the entire forest he inhabited was some how cut off or removed
from the world, he might not care. Although I consider him more
ambitious than this.

3) A silverthorn-like poison? I don`t recommend it, but it`s a
time-honored cliche.

4) It`s not that hard to kill a mage in D&D. What do you need? Some
mage-slaying gear, a globe of invulnerability, a bunch of anti-magic?
Does feeblemind still exist? Granted he`s got saving throws up to yin
yang, but your villains are even higher level. My players are better
with these things. But yeah, it seems to me the easiest thing to do,
if possible, would be to role-play the encounter wherein the PCs
either play HMA or the assassins, prior to the beginning of the
campaign. Sort of a prequal.

5) What if HMA wasn`t delivered? What if he was just gone? Poof,
dissapeared. Had his own reasons. The PCs could be in a position to
uncover the mystery of why he left, who is responsible for the bizzare
murders in the ancient woods lately, who is this new "Daughter of
Night" and what is she creating in HMA`s well-guarded laboratory?
What does any of this have to do with the mysterious "tree hippos"
that have been ravaging the outlying townships? This one has four
advantages:
- By the sound of it, your PCs would already be intrigued by the
death/dissapearance of HMA and would want to solve the mystery and go
on adventures that uncover more clues.
- Being PCs, they would already suspect some treachery of the "good
guy" long before you expose him as a villain if he immediately lays
claim to many of HMA`s source holdings and laboratories in his
absense.
- HMA could be investigating/questing an even greater threat to the
world / elvenkind, setting the stage for your next campaign. Perhaps
an all new even more powerful villain could defeat him (with the new
villain having the homeground advantage).
- When HMA gets back and the villain has all of his source holdings
and is the regent of the ancient forest (and possible all of Arenwe),
you could have an interesting fight on your hands. Perhaps the PCs
could even fight along side HMA.(They`re high enough level to
overshadow him anyway so why not?)

-Lord Rahvin