Battle System simple or compex?

[Osprey]

I think unit experience would be a bad concept to drop. It's more than just a great flavor element, it's an extremely significant characteristic for any sort of standing company of professional soldiers/mercenaries. Throughout history, real experience has been the single most important factor in measuring the effectiveness of soldiers.

One idea I thought of, playing off Irdeggman's suggestions, is to limit the Train Unit action to special training options only; units could be mustered only as Green or Regular units (and who would muster Green if they could have Regulars anyways?). Standard unit costs would be based off of Regular level of experience.

This would insert the concept that "there is no substitute for real experience."

A second option would still allow training units for general experience, but make it much harder, longer, and more expensive by using an XP system (see lower quote below for specifics).

This would still require keeping track of unit experience, but I think this could be done with a very simple system (similar to what I suggested oh so long ago) that minimizes book-keeping yet still rewards those favorite units who keep surviving and succeeding.

Here was my idea for accruing unit XP. XP awards would be applied at the end of each battle:

A unit gains 1 XP for active participation in a battle. This means they must be on the field for at least 1 battle turn, not merely in the reserves.

A unit gains 1 XP if they score at least 1 successful hit on an enemy unit during a battle. Only 1 XP may be gained this way per battle.

A unit gains 1 XP each time they destroy an enemy unit.


When a unit heals damage through normal (non-magical) means, it loses 2 XP per hit of damage healed (but never below 0 XP). This loss represents the recruiting of regular soldiers to replace more experienced casualties.

Experience Levels, Total XP needed, :
Green: -1* (1 XP gained raises the unit to regular experience with 0 XP).
(-2 Attack, -2 Defense, -1 Hits, -1 Move, -2 Morale, -1 GB muster)
Regular: 0 (base stats unmodified)
Veteran: 8 (+2 Att, +1 Def, +1 Hits, +1 Move, +2 Mor; +3 GB muster)
Elite: 16 (+4 Att, +2 Def, +2 Hits, +1 Move, +4 Mor, +6 GB muster)
Crack: 30 (+6 Att, +3 Def, +3 Hits, +1 Move, +6 Mor, +10 GB muster)

Notes:
I'm sure folks will notice the Defensive adjustments for unit experience. While not part of the BRCS system, it seems appropriate based on what was done with Hero Units, and most especially based on military facts: experienced troops are far better at not just saoking up damage, but on how much damage they can avoid in the first place. In medieval era, this would include better dodging and blocking skills (as an inherent skill that improves with experience, seperate from any specialized defensive training), tighter discipline in quickly shifting to or from defensive formations.
Ex: "Arrows incoming! Loose formation, NOW!"
30 seconds later: "Alright, lads, here come their cavalry! Regroup, line of battle! Quick on ya now!"
Greens and irregulars can't do that quite so efficiently. Veterans survive because of such skills.

Speed bonus for vets also represents better unit coordination, not an actual increase in individual speed. However, there should be a limit to such an advantage, so I cut off its progress beyond veteran level.

Muster cost is included to determine the higher maintenance that vet+ units would deservedly recieve. Also, I imagine with such combat experience, a small portion of that would go into things like replacing damaged equipment, rewarding them with occasional bonuses like masterwork items, stipends, cash bonuses, better quarters, and other perks for individual and company achievements. Medals are nice and all, but material rewards are what keep the lads loyal.

I also imagine vet+ units that are disbanded (perhaps they become too expensive to keep around) are highly likely to join or form their own mercenary outfits.

Finally: As an option for those who believe that a degree of experience could be achieved through rigorous training:

Rather than training a unit with special training options, the Train Unit court action may be used to increase a unit's overall level of experience by 1 XP. This requires a character with the Lead skill to perform the action, and costs 1 GB in expenses. The training character makes a Lead check vs. DC (10 + 2 times target XP value). If the check succeeds, the unit gains 1 XP that month.
This action requires a Law Holding (or Guild/Temple holding 2 levels higher) whose level equals or exceeds the unit's current muster cost in GB. For each GB by which the unit's cost exceeds the holding's level, the DC for the action increases by +5.

Ex: A unit of regular medium infantry (2 GB) with 7 XP are trained by a PC Fighter with a +15 Lead skill. He (or his patron regent) must spend a Court Action, pay 1 GB, and utilize a level 2+ law holding (or level 4+ guild or temple) to avoid a penalty to the action. The DC will be 26 (10 + 2x8) for the check, meaning the player must roll an 11 or higher to gaive the unit 1 more XP (and raise them to veteran status).

Osprey

[Osprey]

I would also drop toughness to a bonus hit, rather than bonus hit and +2 morale. It includes the benefit from an advance training, and gives something else even better.

Agreed. 1 Hit is worth special training all by itself.

Here's another tweak idea: Let advanced discipline add +1 Move and +2 Morale, but cost 2 GB.

Unit cohesion should add to a unit's mobility through increased efficiency, and increased fortitude and willpower (the individual benefits of strong discipline) adds to a unit's endurance (a potent factor in battlefield manevering and fighting, as well as strategic marching distances covered).


Also, a side note: If unit experience is retained, I'd recommend limiting special training options to one of each type (rather than 3 levels each of melee, defense, missile, and morale), as it stands in the BRCS.

Of course, I also use the War Academy wonder to allow such things, but that makes for pretty stiff requirements for such things to be possible.

Osprey

[A_dark]

if one could train units to become crack (i hope you don't mean that they're addicted to the stuff...lol... sorry for the pun, but I couldn't resist), then perhaps I should point out that in 2nd ed you could not train units without a limit. There was only so much training that a unit could undergo...

Also, imho, those +6 etc are waaaaaay too strong...

just two cents

[Birthright-L]

Once, instead of unit experience, while running a game I gave an ad

hoc award that turned out to become a regular feature for that game.

All non-irregular non-militia units that succeeded in battle were

given veteran counters which were kept tracked of on the domain record

sheet. During a battle, once per turn per unit, each unit could spend

1 veteran point to gain a +1 to defense, range, melee, and charge. Of

course, what inevitably happened was there was one regent who had two

or three units that just accumulated a large amount of veteran points,

and they were a major part of every battle.



Maybe a concept like that would work a little bit better? It would

need to be expanded on, I think. But maybe having different maneuvers

available by spending veteran points might work... I leave it to the

group to think about.

[tcharazazel]

Well A_Dark, if you look at the numbes, the DC to train a unit to crack will be 10+2x30=70. As this is generally a low end game, who will likely have a high enough lead skill to ever train up a unit to crack status? I think only the Gorgon could pull that off.

Even if someone had the lead skill required, It would also take 30 months to do so as you can only train the unit up 1 time per month and it will use a court action and a character action.

Heh, thus the probability of such units reaching crack status through training is almost negligable, and then even through battle as they loose 2 exp per hit it will be very dificult to keep them so high.

[irdeggman]

So now people are moving towards making a more complex and detailed system than is already in the BRCS-playtest system if I'm reading thing correctly.

Regardless of how easy this add on is being attempted it is still and add on and thus more detailed and complex (i.e., additional steps in the process).

[The Jew]

I don't care which way the argument goes keeping vereran and green status. But if they are kept, Veteran status should be significantly more expensive (for unit upkeep) than mearly giving a unit special training. Veteran status gives bonuses equal to 4-5 special trainings.

Also rather than having a complicated experience chart, just say that if a unit performs especially well during a battle, they can earn veteran status. Leave it to the DM to decided to decide what espcecially well means. A conservative DM may only let great heroics earn it, a liberal DM may allow any unit which was blooded and survived earn it. A formula for experience just seems like to much for the BRCS, save it for a netbook or royal library.

[Thomas_Percy]

Originally posted by irdeggman@May 21 2005, 08:19 PM
1. T'Char Azazel,
I had already decided to include your "simple" resolution system as a variant for even quicker resolution with some mods for hero groups (I'll work that one out when I get there.)

2. The BRCS-playtest battle system is fairly simple as it is (at least when compared to other more detailed ones that is).

Can anyone give me a link to these two systems?

[RaspK_FOG]

I simply loved what you put up, Osprey!! Kudos!

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Thomas_Percy+May 28 2005, 03:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thomas_Percy @ May 28 2005, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@May 21 2005, 08:19 PM
1. T&#39;Char Azazel,
I had already decided to include your "simple" resolution system as a variant for even quicker resolution with some mods for hero groups (I&#39;ll work that one out when I get there.)

2. The BRCS-playtest battle system is fairly simple as it is (at least when compared to other more detailed ones that is).

Can anyone give me a link to these two systems? [/b][/quote]
Quick & Dirty Battle System for the non wargamer, Easiest to not mix the detailed and q&d
http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=3035


BRCS-playtest, Chap 6 Armies and Warfare

Check the pinned topic at the top of this one Latest version of the BRCS by Chapter
I t has links or attachments with the latest versions of everything so far
http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=3003