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  1. #1
    Robert Harper
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    At 08:16 AM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
    >Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems that
    >while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
    >and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining RPs.
    >
    >Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
    >prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used as a
    >revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is not
    >thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.

    I'm not sure I see the problem, each holding type contributes its own niche.
    Law might seem most generally applicable, but doesn't generate as much
    steady income directly. Source also doesn't generate any income. Temple
    and Guild are both the most reliable GB generators next to rule of province
    itself. Temple also the anchor for priestly realm magic (perhaps to be
    expanded in Book of Priestcraft?) and Guild for trade routes.

    As to temples preventing rebellion/increasing loyalty - they do, through
    Agitate actions (free for priest, aided by having more powerful holding -
    which is likely to be the temple). Thus priests of powerful temples can
    easily aid or hinder rulers.

    As to using guilds as revenue source?????? IMHO, RTFM.

    __________________________________________________ _________________
    | |
    | We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
    | Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
    | |
    | Lucien LaCroix |
    |_________________________________________________ __________________|

  2. #2
    Brenda L Santer
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    >Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems that
    >while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
    >and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining RPs.
    >
    >Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
    >prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used as a
    >revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is not
    >thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.
    >
    >Any other ideas?
    >
    >Noah
    >
    >************************************************* **************************
    >>A couple of reasons to have temple holdings:
    1)so you can cast priest realm spells. There are several in the rule book,
    there was a dragon article a while back with several more, Darkstar's
    website has some as well, and the long-awaited Book of Priestcraft is to
    have more again.
    2)Investiture is a priest realm spell. No temple holdings=no realm spells=
    no investiture of acquired lands by the ruler of the country or others.
    3)Temple holdings also generate income as in Table 18 of the Rulebook.
    Money is always a good reason.
    4)Just to keep others from getting them or to give power in another
    country. In the Ruins of Empire book Guilder Kalien of Endier has a few
    holdings that do not generate regency for him (Law in Alamie and Medoere as
    well as temple holdings in Diemed) but which do secure his power base.


    A couple of reasons to have guild holdings:
    1)trade routes require guild holdings
    2)sea trade routes need guild holdings.
    3)trade chains require guild holdings
    4)exploratory trade requires guild holdings.

    All of the above generate income, in fairly substantial quantities.

    5)as with Temple holdings, guild holdings also generate income as in Table
    18 of the Rulebook. Money is always a good reason.
    6)according to the Rulebook, guild holdings improve the chances of success
    for espionage actions performed by the holder of the guild holdings.
    7)again according to the rulebook, guild holdings provide a thief regent
    with thugs who will supply information and muscle. As long as a thief
    regent has a holding in a province, he can evade capture/arrest
    indefinitely.
    8)just to build up a power base.

    Hope this helps.

    *************************************
    Brenda Santer:


    mailto:bls127@mail.usask.ca
    *************************************

  3. #3
    Morten Helles
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    > Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems
    > that while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the
    > guilds and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than > gaining RPs.
    >
    > Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
    > prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used
    > as a revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure
    > game balance is not thrown off, but at least the other holdings would
    > serve a purpose.

    I think you have misunderstood the rules on this one. As stated by table
    18 on page 43 in the Rulebook both guild and temple holdings collect a
    LOT of money. For most regents this is purpose enough. Besides
    collecting both RPs and GBs, temple holdings also provide priests the
    power to cast realm spells.

    Morten.

    PS: I guess no one wanted to play thief or priest in your campaign, eh?

    +

  4. #4
    araqyl@spin.net.au (Jes
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    >Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems that
    >while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
    >and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining RPs.
    >
    >Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
    >prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used as a
    >revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is not
    >thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.
    >
    >Any other ideas?
    >
    >Noah
    >
    >************************************************* **************************

    IDHTBIFOM, but I think Temple and Guild Holdings can both generate income
    for the controlling regent... it's in the rule book, on the same page as
    province taxes, IIRC...

    Also, there's the obvious advantage for priests (and, in some campaigns I've
    seen, paladins) of Temple Holdings allowing the casting of Realm Magic.

    Oh, and I think Guild Holdings are also required for constructing trade routes??

    So, IIRC, Temple and Guild Holdings are pretty useful to everyone already...

    See ya,
    Jeremy Scrimes
    araqyl@spin.net.au
    aka: Jes, Bolt, Araqyl, Jeremiah, Jeremy Hinoski.

  5. #5
    Robert Ripley
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    Noah Robert Zerbe wrote:

    > Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems
    > that
    > while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
    >
    > and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining
    > RPs.
    >
    > Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
    > prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used
    > as a
    > revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is
    > not
    > thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.
    >
    > Any other ideas?

    Temple holdings are used in the Agitate action (priests get a free one
    to represent what you just said.)And Guilds are used in the Trade Route
    action, to create extra revenue. You have to take actions to use them
    but it works out to what you are looking for.

    If you are thinking that a fighter Nation Regent who owns Law and
    Guild and Temple holdings needs more bonuses from them, then I think
    that the game designers gave the other classes bonuses so that it would
    limit his power a bit.
    (I still think that only the Thief class can set up a trade route.)
    - --

    Bob R.

    ************************************************** *****************************

    PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
    http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
    http://molokai.ucsd.edu/pbem
    bobripley@earthlink.net
    ************************************************** *****************************

  6. #6
    Robert Ripley
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    > A couple of reasons to have guild holdings:
    > 1)trade routes require guild holdings
    > 2)sea trade routes need guild holdings.



    > 3)trade chains require guild holdings
    > 4)exploratory trade requires guild holdings.

    Hey Brenda.. what are these last 2?

    - --

    Bob R.

    ************************************************** *****************************

    PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
    http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
    http://molokai.ucsd.edu/pbem
    bobripley@earthlink.net
    ************************************************** *****************************

  7. #7
    Brenda L Santer
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    >> 3)trade chains require guild holdings
    >> 4)exploratory trade requires guild holdings.
    >
    >Hey Brenda.. what are these last 2?
    >
    >--
    >
    > Bob R.
    >

    Both of these are new domain actions found in the Havens of the Great Bay
    expansion book by Ed Stark. There is also a new Guilder subclass in there
    (as in "Guilder" Kalien),a black strike sword fighting style used by
    Brechts, and for those of you who read the Ships and Rivers piece that was
    sent in by Ed Stark to this mail list a while back, that is where the
    Tower Ships come from.

    *************************************
    Brenda Santer:


    mailto:bls127@mail.usask.ca
    *************************************

  8. #8
    Robert Harper
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    At 12:36 PM 7/8/97 -0600, you wrote:

    >Brechts, and for those of you who read the Ships and Rivers piece that was
    >sent in by Ed Stark to this mail list a while back, that is where the
    >Tower Ships come from.

    I missed the Ships and Rivers piece, can someone email it to me or let me
    know when it was posted so I can look it up in archives?

    __________________________________________________ _________________
    | |
    | We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
    | Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
    | |
    | Lucien LaCroix |
    |_________________________________________________ __________________|

  9. #9
    Robert Ripley
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    Brenda L Santer wrote:

    > >> 3)trade chains require guild holdings
    > >> 4)exploratory trade requires guild holdings.
    > >
    > >Hey Brenda.. what are these last 2?
    > >
    > >--
    > >
    > > Bob R.
    > >
    >
    > Both of these are new domain actions found in the Havens of the Great
    > Bay
    > expansion book by Ed Stark. There is also a new Guilder subclass in
    > there
    > (as in "Guilder" Kalien),a black strike sword fighting style used by
    > Brechts, and for those of you who read the Ships and Rivers piece that
    > was
    > sent in by Ed Stark to this mail list a while back, that is where the
    >
    > Tower Ships come from.

    aha I knew there was a Guilder class in one of the Domain books. Of
    course it's in the one I don't have..

    thanx!
    - --

    Bob R.

    ************************************************** *****************************

    PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
    http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
    http://molokai.ucsd.edu/pbem
    bobripley@earthlink.net
    ************************************************** *****************************

  10. #10
    Dustin Evermore
    Guest

    uses of holdings

    tbeutler wrote:
    >
    >
    >On Tue, 08 Jul 1997, Robert Ripley wrote:
    >
    >> Bob R.
    >>
    >I agree. The rules try to balance out the different PC classes as
    regents.
    >Thieves (or guilders) should be the only class to set up trade routes.
    Other
    >regents can influence this by decrees (allowing/prohibiting the trade
    route),
    >demanding some of the income ... A regent can "get" a thief ltn to set
    up a
    >trade route ...
    > Todd

    Yet, take Tuornen for example. The Duchess has only one Guild holding,
    and most domain turns can not generate enough money to support a decent
    army, much less improve her lot in life, much. This even by taxing ALL guild
    and temple holdings from 10-20% of their total income made in Tuornen!!
    Especially in situations like this, I let the non-Thief regent build a
    trade route, especially since she's going to have to share some of the
    proceeds with someone on the other end.

    Heck, if the guildmasters are going to let Lord So-and-so build a trade
    route nearby and then not molest it, why not?

    DE

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