Character levels

[Felix]

Just for a reference, most of my fellow players complain to the Dungeon
Master that they never achieve high levels. They consider 10th or 11th
level high levels and the players (including myself) are always in an
average of 3rd level (I myself, in three years of play have only achieve
the 6th level with a wizard who died charging a juvenille black dragon. It
was a stupid thing to do but it was my first character and, ever since
then, I have never manage to attain that level of experience again.


Knowing that the table goes to 25 (Dark Sun's goes to 30) and not having
any contacts with players except on this list, I would like to know your
opinion on character levels, especially on Birthright where rulers can have
1st level and can be assassinated with one blow (realistic but dangerous).
Could you send me examples you know and wich levels do you normally attain?

Thanks
"Death is but what the haughty brave, the weak must bear, the wretch must
crave."
- Byron

Felix
jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt

[Sepsis]

At 12:42 PM 6/30/97 +0200, Felix(jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt)wrote:
>

>
>Knowing that the table goes to 25 (Dark Sun's goes to 30) and not having
>any contacts with players except on this list, I would like to know your
>opinion on character levels, especially on Birthright where rulers can have
>1st level and can be assassinated with one blow (realistic but dangerous).
>Could you send me examples you know and wich levels do you normally attain?
>

Level progression has never been the main focus of any of my games, so I
tend to keep levels between low to mid level(by giving 1/2 or 1/4 Exp. value
for monsters). Besides these are the levels that are most equal to play.
That is under 3rd a PC is a little too weak and over 10th the get a little
too tough. So I try to run the majority of my games with the PCs between
these two extremes. As it takes many years for the PCs to reach 10th Level
they usually "retire" thier characters somewhere around 12th or 13th Level.
Anyways mid-level works for me although I can't speak for anyone else on the
List.

Sepsis, richt@metrolink.net

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
the province of life or death;
the road to survival or ruin.
It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
-Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

BR Netbook: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/birth.html

[Matthew M. Colville]

The first AD&D campaign I ever played in, the GM only awared XP for
monsters. As a result, we reached (eventually) 6th level and then
stopped. By this I mean, we kept playing, but we stopped advancing
because there simply weren't enough monsters to ever advance. We
eventually ran out of modules. Our characters became vastly
imbalanced. We had great magic items, since we had been forced to go
through modules of higher level than we were, but we had terrible hit
points.


Our GM fought like mad against using the XP for Gold rule.
Eventually, however, he was kinda forced to do so, because we really
didn't like the idea of retiring our characters ever time they reached
6th level.


We started playing in another GM's game, and he did
award XP for Gold. As a result, we advanced at a fairly regular rate.
We started off at zero level, and worked our characters up, over the
course of about 2 years, to 14th level. This, AD&D as it was meant to
be played, convinced our orignal GM to use the rule.


I work off the premise that if the PCs are going through a module,
then they get the XP from the module. However, I often design my own
stuff. When I do this, I work off the precept that each session should
work out to roughly 1/3rd the xp necessary to advance.

My Players started off at 1st level, playing solo advantures with me.
I brought them together at 3rd level, at which point they had gone
through between 7 and 9 sessions alone. Then I started them through
Night Below. They aren't even 2/3rds of the way through NB, and the
highest level character is already 11th level. He's a bard. The
Cavalier, by contrast, is 7th.

So, before Night Below, they were getting 1/3rd the xp necessary to
advance. After they started Night Below, I just gave them the XP they
earned and they've kept pace with the NIght Below guidlines ("At this
point, the PCs should be between 7th and 10th level. . .")


I feel really sorry for people who play AD&D once a week for three
years and only get to 6th level. This is almost cruel. I can't
imagine disliking my players so much that I would keep them at low
levels long after they should have advanced. What must it be like to
never get 4th level spells? To know
that your character will never, ever be able to wield the vast majority
of magic in the game? Ick.

- ---------------------- ---------------------------

Matthew M. Colville. Armed only with wisdom

mcolville@earthlink.net The Shintao Monks fight against the
darkness...

Role-Playing and Fiction

http://home.earthlink.net/~mcolville

[Brian Stoner]

Felix wrote:

> Just for a reference, most of my fellow players complain to the
> Dungeon
> Master that they never achieve high levels. They consider 10th or 11th
>
> level high levels and the players (including myself) are always in an
> average of 3rd level (I myself, in three years of play have only
> achieve
> the 6th level with a wizard who died charging a juvenille black
> dragon. It
> was a stupid thing to do but it was my first character and, ever since
>
> then, I have never manage to attain that level of experience again.
>
>
> Knowing that the table goes to 25 (Dark Sun's goes to 30) and not
> having
> any contacts with players except on this list, I would like to know
> your
> opinion on character levels, especially on Birthright where rulers can
> have
> 1st level and can be assassinated with one blow (realistic but
> dangerous).
> Could you send me examples you know and wich levels do you normally
> attain?
>
> Thanks
> "Death is but what the haughty brave, the weak must bear, the wretch
> must
> crave."
> - Byron
>
> Felix
> jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt
>

In our campaign we have reached 6-8th levels. However, we did not all
start at 1st level. We decided that it was a little weird that all
these regents suddenly started at 1st. Therefore we used random rolls
to give a little more variety. We all started below 4th level, and have
slowly worked our way up.

Take note as well: the 8th level character is a ranger with High
Mastery (see Player's Option: Combat & Tactics) in dual long swords
(both magical). He also has magical Elven Chain Mail (trust me) and
over 100 hp. Normally, I would consider this the result of cheating,
however, I know he has acheived this legitamately. Thus, I would
consider him higher than the average 8th level character.

Some players would have preferred to start at 1st level (they could have
if they wanted to), but it didn't make sense for everyone to. Even at
our current levels, some players are considering bringing in new
characters at 1st level.

- -Brian

[matteo]

I'm a player in a Birthright campaign and my character, a Paladin with
the
Awnsheglien Slayer kit, has right now attained sixth level, and he is
the
most powerful (talking 'bout levels of course) PC I have ever runned...
but our group is a non-regent one, we're just blooded scions. Actually
my character is nominally the heir to Roesone's Barony but I have to
kick
the usurper awnsheg out of it to be able to accumulate-spend RPs and of
course run the holdings etc...in a
previous campaign we runned 1st level regent characters, but in the end
we were quite weak (and weakness + fame are a deadly combination) so
we had to hang around with bodyguards every step we had to make...

[James H. Jenkins]

About Character Levels in Games:

I have just solved this problem to my complete satisfaction.
As the DM/Ref/GM, wanted to start everyone off at 1st Level, even though
there were many cries for "Letting players use characters from other
campaigns." I had to say no.

Using (Shameless Plug) TSR's EXCELLENT "DM's Option - Hi Level
Campaigns," I read the book through, cover to cover. Seeing that
characters retire at about 20th level, asked myself "How long do I want
this baby (My new BR campaign) to run?" The answer came out to be:
"About 2 years."

Figuring out (From PHB, 2nd Ed.) that I wanted the PC's to retire after
two years of game play, playing about 1 adventure a week, that gave me
54 or so weeks/scenarios.
(Not including vacations, winter holidays, etc. but just to get a good
number.)

Now, dividing out the whole thing, (and using chapter 8, PHB, 2nd Ed. as
a guide) I came up with the following schedule: (The only reason I did
this was because I was amazed I hadn't figured out how to do this type
of long-range campaign planning before, and I've been a DM/Ref for over
20 years, so either I'm clueless, or it was missing the forest for the
trees.) Anyway, here's the schedule:

# of Scenarios: 0 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 5
to Reach LEVEL: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

# of Scenarios: 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6
to Reach LEVEL: 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

At this pace, the PC's can see character growth, over the long term, but
not so much so that the campaign grows too fast. 20 levels in 102
weeks, at the rate of about 4.5 scenarios/weeks per new level.

For those that have not bought a copy of High Level Campaigns, You're
missing out if you don't. With that book, and "Complete Book of
Villains," This new BR campaign is going to be a lot of fun, (especially
with the BR format.)

So, As a DM/Ref/GM, give your players X.P. regularly, so that they can
see growth.
(I used to do this as "Ok, you got the sword, and whacked the Dragon.
uh.... 6000 X.P.
for character roleplay... uh... another 300.) No plan at all, Just threw
X.P. out at random, on personal whim. Scenarios didn't match the
experience levels, it was really a mess for a long time.

This was because I was so caught up in "Don't let characters zoom up in
levels."
At 1st - 3rd level, this is okay, be stingy with X.P., Gold, and
ESPECIALLY Magic items!

(It takes an average of about 500 X.P. per scenario to reach 2nd level
in 4 sessions, but after that (mid level (5-8), you (as a DM/Ref) HAVE
to give out about 20,000 X.P. or so, until the chart tops off and levels
out at about 11th or so, until 20th level.)

As a result, in my old campaigns, players lost interest, after reaching
4th -5th level, because it was taking them 10 - 12 adventures to go up!

So, plan out how long you want to play till the players PC's retire. I
HAD to do this,
because I graduate with my BA in religion in exactly 2 years.

If, for example, you want to go slower, just figure out where you want
to be at (in average levels) and then do the math on the X.P. chart.
Like this:
For Example:
Suppose the Average PC in the group is at 3rd level, and has 8,000
X.P.
X.P. Needed for 4th level is (roughly) 16,000

You as DM, want them to make 4th in about 4 scenarios (To fit into
long-range plan, above.)
Therefore, you need to give EACH PC in the GROUP (16,000 - 8,000 X.P.)
= 8,000.
Then, 8,000 / 4 scenarios = 2,000 X.P. PER PC EACH, Per scenario, to
fit the Campaign Plan. So, If your Group has 4 PC's, you need to make
sure that the next 4 adventures that you run total 4 X 2,000 each X.P.,
for a total of 8,000 GROUP X.P.
If you do it like I do, that works out to about (For the WHOLE GROUP):
1000 X.P. - Roleplay
4000 X.P. - Monsters
2000 X.P. - Negotiating Traps/puzzles/mazes
1000 X.P. - Value of treasure, etc.
(If you use the old Gold Piece gained = X.P. system.)

Total = 8,000 X.P. for the group, per mission.

Note also that you can award greater or lesser, to your group at any
time, as seems necessary. I just wanted to have some sort of guide.
This also lets me figure out how many HD of monsters, and/or how much
treasure to put in to the mission/scenario.

If this is obvious to all of those out there, sorry.
Hope this helps!

- - James H. Jenkins

[Matthew M. Colville]

>About Character Levels in Games:

If this is obvious to all of those out there, sorry.

>Hope this helps!

>

>- James H. Jenkins


No, I wouldn't say it was obvious. I do exactly the same kind of
stuff in my campaigns. I do use the XP for Gold rule and it makes life
a lot easier when you're doing the kind of calculations your doing.
Basically because you can figure out how much XP the player's need,
subtract the amount they're going to get for monsters, and make up the
difference with gold.


Mind you, this has traditionally meant that the PCs end up with a lot
of gold. However, in the most successful campaign I've ever
played in, this wasn't a problem as the PCs generally
ended up as Landed Nobles anyway, and needed that kind of cash to run
thier kingdom.

With the advent of Birthright, of course, the system we had been using
suddenly recieved official validation. The PC playing the Duke of
Tuornen is making a lot of money out of Night Below,
but as it turns out, all that cash merely puts him in the same tax
bracket as Darian Avan and the Archduke. Interesting, no?

- ---------------------- ---------------------------

Matthew M. Colville. Armed only with wisdom

mcolville@earthlink.net The Shintao Monks fight against the
darkness...

Role-Playing and Fiction

http://home.earthlink.net/~mcolville

[Jøran Lindblom]

Felix wrote:
>=20
> Just for a reference, most of my fellow players complain to the Dungeon
> Master that they never achieve high levels. They consider 10th or 11th
> level high levels and the players (including myself) are always in an
> average of 3rd level (I myself, in three years of play have only achiev=
e
> the 6th level with a wizard who died charging a juvenille black dragon.=
It
> was a stupid thing to do but it was my first character and, ever since
> then, I have never manage to attain that level of experience again.
>=20
>=20
> Knowing that the table goes to 25 (Dark Sun's goes to 30) and not havin=
g
> any contacts with players except on this list, I would like to know you=
r
> opinion on character levels, especially on Birthright where rulers can =
have
> 1st level and can be assassinated with one blow (realistic but dangerou=
s).
> Could you send me examples you know and wich levels do you normally att=
ain?
>=20
> Thanks
> "Death is but what the haughty brave, the weak must bear, the wretch mu=
st
> crave."
> - Byron
>=20
> Felix
> jonasfel@mail.telepac.pt
>=20

IMC most of my players are around 5th level.


- --=20
- - J=F8ran Lindblom

[Alan B. Barton]

James,

That was very enlightening and although I have not DM'd as long as you
(only 14 years) I am glad you pointed that out so i will not go 6 more
years in darkness before I may hope for enlightenment. :)

Alan
James H. Jenkins wrote:

> About Character Levels in Games:
>
> I have just solved this problem to my complete satisfaction.
> As the DM/Ref/GM, wanted to start everyone off at 1st Level, even
> though
> there were many cries for "Letting players use characters from other
> campaigns." I had to say no.
>
> Using (Shameless Plug) TSR's EXCELLENT "DM's Option - Hi Level
> Campaigns," I read the book through, cover to cover. Seeing that
> characters retire at about 20th level, asked myself "How long do I
> want
> this baby (My new BR campaign) to run?" The answer came out to be:
> "About 2 years."
>
> Figuring out (From PHB, 2nd Ed.) that I wanted the PC's to retire
> after
> two years of game play, playing about 1 adventure a week, that gave me
>
> 54 or so weeks/scenarios.
> (Not including vacations, winter holidays, etc. but just to get a good
>
> number.)
>
> Now, dividing out the whole thing, (and using chapter 8, PHB, 2nd Ed.
> as
> a guide) I came up with the following schedule: (The only reason I
> did
> this was because I was amazed I hadn't figured out how to do this type
>
> of long-range campaign planning before, and I've been a DM/Ref for
> over
> 20 years, so either I'm clueless, or it was missing the forest for the
>
> trees.) Anyway, here's the schedule:
>
> # of Scenarios: 0 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 5
> to Reach LEVEL: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
>
> # of Scenarios: 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6
> to Reach LEVEL: 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
>
> At this pace, the PC's can see character growth, over the long term,
> but
> not so much so that the campaign grows too fast. 20 levels in 102
> weeks, at the rate of about 4.5 scenarios/weeks per new level.
>
> For those that have not bought a copy of High Level Campaigns, You're
> missing out if you don't. With that book, and "Complete Book of
> Villains," This new BR campaign is going to be a lot of fun,
> (especially
> with the BR format.)
>
> So, As a DM/Ref/GM, give your players X.P. regularly, so that they can
>
> see growth.
> (I used to do this as "Ok, you got the sword, and whacked the Dragon.
> uh.... 6000 X.P.
> for character roleplay... uh... another 300.) No plan at all, Just
> threw
> X.P. out at random, on personal whim. Scenarios didn't match the
> experience levels, it was really a mess for a long time.
>
> This was because I was so caught up in "Don't let characters zoom up
> in
> levels."
> At 1st - 3rd level, this is okay, be stingy with X.P., Gold, and
> ESPECIALLY Magic items!
>
> (It takes an average of about 500 X.P. per scenario to reach 2nd level
>
> in 4 sessions, but after that (mid level (5-8), you (as a DM/Ref) HAVE
>
> to give out about 20,000 X.P. or so, until the chart tops off and
> levels
> out at about 11th or so, until 20th level.)
>
> As a result, in my old campaigns, players lost interest, after
> reaching
> 4th -5th level, because it was taking them 10 - 12 adventures to go
> up!
>
> So, plan out how long you want to play till the players PC's retire.
> I
> HAD to do this,
> because I graduate with my BA in religion in exactly 2 years.
>
> If, for example, you want to go slower, just figure out where you want
>
> to be at (in average levels) and then do the math on the X.P. chart.
> Like this:
> For Example:
> Suppose the Average PC in the group is at 3rd level, and has 8,000
> X.P.
> X.P. Needed for 4th level is (roughly) 16,000
>
> You as DM, want them to make 4th in about 4 scenarios (To fit into
> long-range plan, above.)
> Therefore, you need to give EACH PC in the GROUP (16,000 - 8,000
> X.P.)
> = 8,000.
> Then, 8,000 / 4 scenarios = 2,000 X.P. PER PC EACH, Per scenario, to
> fit the Campaign Plan. So, If your Group has 4 PC's, you need to make
>
> sure that the next 4 adventures that you run total 4 X 2,000 each
> X.P.,
> for a total of 8,000 GROUP X.P.
> If you do it like I do, that works out to about (For the WHOLE GROUP):
>
> 1000 X.P. - Roleplay
> 4000 X.P. - Monsters
> 2000 X.P. - Negotiating Traps/puzzles/mazes
> 1000 X.P. - Value of treasure, etc.
> (If you use the old Gold Piece gained = X.P. system.)
>
> Total = 8,000 X.P. for the group, per mission.
>
> Note also that you can award greater or lesser, to your group at any
> time, as seems necessary. I just wanted to have some sort of guide.
> This also lets me figure out how many HD of monsters, and/or how much
> treasure to put in to the mission/scenario.
>
> If this is obvious to all of those out there, sorry.
> Hope this helps!
>
> - James H. Jenkins
> ******************
> ************************************************** ******
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
>

[Sepsis]

At 10:32 AM 6/30/97 -0700, Matthew Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>
>I feel really sorry for people who play AD&D once a week for three
>years and only get to 6th level. This is almost cruel. I can't
>imagine disliking my players so much that I would keep them at low
>levels long after they should have advanced. What must it be like to
>never get 4th level spells? To know that your character will never,
>ever be able to wield the vast majority of magic in the game? Ick.
>

Its not as bad as you think. First if you center more on role-playing then
Levels you get more out of the game. My problem with upper Levels has to do
with other factors not just Magic. Mostly I'm talking about THAC0, Saving
Throws, Thieving Skills, and HPs. In order to keep the PCs on par with most
NPCs and monsters they will ever encounter in a game its good to keep thier
Levels in the mid range for as long as possible. As for the use of higher
Level spells I have a house rule I use that allows PCs to use these spells
if they find or research them(more role-playing). A Mages "chance to know
spell" -2% per level difference between the PCs Level and the Level needed
to cast it normally. This is rolled everytime the PC tries to cast it.
Failure means probaly losing the spell from your spellbook or possibly
something more dire(depends on spell, and my mood). Note: PCs can't memorize
these higher Level spells, but may try to cast them (Con. divided by 3)
times per day. Priests may tithe to thier Temples and get scrolls that
contain spells they normally do not have access to. With a little work you
can still let PCs take advantage of all the neat little PC goodies without
having to become a slave to Level progression. As I said earlier my Players
have long passed the point where all they want is to cast Clone or own a
Mace of Disruption. My Mages and Priests have more fun seeking out rare
formulas and components, or gathering members to thier "flocks", then
casting spells at bad guys so I may be a bad example. Again this is all just
MHO.

Sepsis, richt@metrolink.net

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
the province of life or death;
the road to survival or ruin.
It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
-Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

BR Netbook: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/birth.html