Azrai and Bizzaro Birthright

[Matthew M. Colville]

> I admit, a lot
>of what I have to say is not "from the rules", but whay is that necessary?

It's not neccessary. But if I'm talking about how I think things
*should* be, and you respond with "Hey, anyone can do anything," you
haven't added to the discussion. Telling us *why* you think things
shouldn't be that way would be more appropriate.

If, as is the case, we're talking about Azria being dead, saying
"hey, in my campaign, Azrai's alive and serving beer in the Royal College
of Sorcery's cafeteria!" is not the same as saying "Azrai *should* be alive
and here's why."

I said, long ago, "Azrai's dead. That's why there are scions of
his bloodline."

Now, if you disagree with this, tell me *why* Azrai isn't dead. It
says in the rule-book that he is, probably more than once now that I think
about it. I know, as does anyone who knows what role-playing is, that
*you* can decide whatever you want about your world. You can decide that
Azrai never died in the first place. Presenting this as an *option* and
describing how you worked out (or ignored. . .whatever) Azrai's bloodline
might be interesting, but it doesn't mean I was wrong. It means I was
right, and you don't like that fact (not that I was right, but that Azrai's
dead) and decided to *change* it.

[David Sean Brown]

>
> It's not neccessary. But if I'm talking about how I think things
> *should* be, and you respond with "Hey, anyone can do anything," you
> haven't added to the discussion. Telling us *why* you think things
> shouldn't be that way would be more appropriate.
>
> If, as is the case, we're talking about Azria being dead, saying
> "hey, in my campaign, Azrai's alive and serving beer in the Royal College
> of Sorcery's cafeteria!" is not the same as saying "Azrai *should* be alive
> and here's why."
>
> I said, long ago, "Azrai's dead. That's why there are scions of
> his bloodline."
>
> Now, if you disagree with this, tell me *why* Azrai isn't dead. It
> says in the rule-book that he is, probably more than once now that I think
> about it. I know, as does anyone who knows what role-playing is, that
> *you* can decide whatever you want about your world. You can decide that
> Azrai never died in the first place. Presenting this as an *option* and
> describing how you worked out (or ignored. . .whatever) Azrai's bloodline
> might be interesting, but it doesn't mean I was wrong. It means I was
> right, and you don't like that fact (not that I was right, but that Azrai's
> dead) and decided to *change* it.
>
>
Well, if my memory (and my list of previous posts) ,serves me well, I DID
explain why I think Azria might not be dead (I also recall getting flamed
pretty badly for it) I stated that mortals cannot kill a god, gods can't
permantly die on a plane other than their own, Azrai may have been only a
powerful avatar, and several others. I referenced other source, like FR,
Planescape and the manual of the planes, so what else would you like?

Before you decide to trash some of my posts, please try to make sure you
have read all of them.

Sean

[Robert Ripley]

> Well, if my memory (and my list of previous posts) ,serves me well, I
> DID
> explain why I think Azria might not be dead (I also recall getting
> flamed
> pretty badly for it) I stated that mortals cannot kill a god, gods
> can't
> permantly die on a plane other than their own, Azrai may have been
> only a
> powerful avatar, and several others. I referenced other source, like
> FR,
> Planescape and the manual of the planes, so what else would you like?
>
> Before you decide to trash some of my posts, please try to make sure
> you
> have read all of them.
>
> Sean
>
> ****
> ************************************************** ********************
>
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> I can't believe you seriously think Azrai is not dead. This is the main
theme of the Birthright Campaign setting. Where else did the bloodlines
come from?
Bloodlines are the physical god's essence. If they weren't killed than
how else can they be explained?

(NOTE- I am NOT talking about your own campaign I mean Birthright in
general)

If you think disagreement is getting flamed you need to get some thicker
skin.

- --

Bob R.

[Matthew M. Colville]

Sean said:
>>
>> I said, long ago, "Azrai's dead. That's why there are scions of
>> his bloodline."
>>
>> Now, if you disagree with this, tell me *why* Azrai isn't dead.
>>
>Well, if my memory (and my list of previous posts) ,serves me well, I DID
>explain why I think Azria might not be dead (I also recall getting flamed
>pretty badly for it) I stated that mortals cannot kill a god, gods can't
>permantly die on a plane other than their own, Azrai may have been only a
>powerful avatar, and several others. I referenced other source, like FR,
>Planescape and the manual of the planes, so what else would you like?

You're not following what I'm saying. If someone thinks your idea
regarding Azrai's continued existance is stupid, responding with "Well,
it's my campaign, I can do whatever I want" is not necessary because we all
already know that. Additionally, it doesn't *disagree* with the person who
thought the idea was stupid. No-one is disputing your right to think
whatever you want, so defending that right is meaningless. People are
disputing the value of your ideas. Those are what you should concentrate
on defending.
I believe you've tried to defend your ideas. I also believe you've
tried to sidetrack the discussion by throwing up a strawman argument ("The
Gm can do whatever he wants!") No-one asserted the opposite, so you don't
need to bring it up.

>Before you decide to trash some of my posts, please try to make sure you
>have read all of them.

I don't need to read every post to know what you said in one of them.

[Trevor Romkey]

Well I can't stay on the sidelines any more. Let's make this real simple,
Azrai does NOT have to be dead. The rule book says many things, that later
publications change. It is a compilationn of all the basic facts and is not
intended to put forward unmutable facts.The premise is, that the gods died
and from them many people reeceived thier bloodlines, but this was an unique
occurance and the death of a god need not be the only way. The arguement
that "I read this in the rule book " doesn't hold water. The rule book puts
forward a basic history, it is assumed that this is the general belief of
what happened but it could be that the scholars got it wrong. All the gods
could be alive, in some state, and they could as easily be dead. We' re
talking Gods here and even if they appeared dead , as mortals know it, who
can say what powers are at work??

Now my personal opinion is that it is likely to make more sense if all the
gods died but that's not to say that there is plenty of room for
interpretation.

At 07:50 PM 25/05/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Sean said:
>>>
>>> I said, long ago, "Azrai's dead. That's why there are scions of
>>> his bloodline."
>>>
>>> Now, if you disagree with this, tell me *why* Azrai isn't dead.
>>>
>>Well, if my memory (and my list of previous posts) ,serves me well, I DID
>>explain why I think Azria might not be dead (I also recall getting flamed
>>pretty badly for it) I stated that mortals cannot kill a god, gods can't
>>permantly die on a plane other than their own, Azrai may have been only a
>>powerful avatar, and several others. I referenced other source, like FR,
>>Planescape and the manual of the planes, so what else would you like?
>
> You're not following what I'm saying. If someone thinks your idea
>regarding Azrai's continued existance is stupid, responding with "Well,
>it's my campaign, I can do whatever I want" is not necessary because we all
>already know that. Additionally, it doesn't *disagree* with the person who
>thought the idea was stupid. No-one is disputing your right to think
>whatever you want, so defending that right is meaningless. People are
>disputing the value of your ideas. Those are what you should concentrate
>on defending.
> I believe you've tried to defend your ideas. I also believe you've
>tried to sidetrack the discussion by throwing up a strawman argument ("The
>Gm can do whatever he wants!") No-one asserted the opposite, so you don't
>need to bring it up.
>
>>Before you decide to trash some of my posts, please try to make sure you
>>have read all of them.
>
> I don't need to read every post to know what you said in one of them.
>
>
>************************************************* **************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>
>

[Zero]

Azrai's death is a matter of speculation (Thanks to Trevor Romkey's post,
read it for reference).

The death of all the gods (Gods... what's the difference) is initially
proposed in the BR boxed set. The Atlas of Cerillia details all of the
land's known history, including the Shadow war, but the opening statement
couches this "official document" as a book written by one of the characters
currently residing in the campaign world (nice touch). The best part here
is that the real-world author can legitimately state that "those weren't my
ideas, they were the character's and were published as such" and can
"officially" change them at any date. After all do all of you want to
stake claims that Calliede Dhoesierre is actually 100% right? (dispute
this please, then go and dispute it with Aurther C. Clarke in his opening
statements of Childhood's End.)

Sean Brown has reference several situations and perceptions as to why any
of the gods _might_ not be dead, and officially at that. The posts as to
the "my campaign" stuff are fairly correct in that we should defend our
ideas... but get real here. Attacking a person's idea by calling it stupid
is about as childish as the can-can't that I've been participating in for
the last 1/2 month or so.

So... I personally want to bring the dark god back to life if my own
campaign. I admit to being a shameless ripoff of some of David Eddings
bright ideas, but that's my own problem (someone sue me please). I see
Azrai as a good substitute for Torak in my games, and I think it would be
fun.

Azrai was _not_ slain (in my own campaign) at that gigantic divine
piledriver later named Mt. Diesmaar. Why: he was too powerful. He had
the combined worship of almost every citizen of the Adurian continent, the
worhsip of the Vos, the alliegance of the elves, the worship of the
humanoids, and the alliegance of a few dragons, if I'm not mistaken (there
was a Dragon article about six months before BR was published talking about
Cerillian dragons and their history, search me if I can remember the
number, but the article was good).

The other gods all had the backing of their respective people, and some not
even that. The final fight betwixt the champion stacked up in Dhoesierre's
histories as Raesene, Belinik, Kriesha, and Rhuobe(?) against Haelyn,
Reole, Erik, Sera, Ruornil (not even of Vorynn's people), and Avani. Now,
the gods themselves "took form to battle atop the mountain) and according
to the Atlas of Cerilia (an "official document") it would seem that the
Shadow side was headlong toward ultimate victory. Azrai was able to hold
off all FIVE of his brothers and sisters and still live while granting
power to his priests on the battlefield. His champions were quite probably
mopping the field with the others and having a good time at it. The
explosion was a final act of desparation by the the other gods, and a
desperate gamble, I don't imagine that they had alot of time to decide.
For a human to sacrifice himself for his comrades and people is not a
decision easily made, and I can't see that the gods as having the decision
come any easier, but they did it and died trying.

BOOM!!

Diesmar is now a pit in the ocean and there are a whole bunch of new gods
(funny how Azrai's power is enough to generate two gods).

Here's the secret (in my own campaign):
The divine explosion killed almost everything on the field, including a
goodly number of the gods' respective worhsipers. Only those that matched
the ideals of their dieties were given some of the essence, and there were
alot more Azrai worhsipers out there than to any other god.
As the inital shock wears off, and most of everyone else figures out how
to use their powers on their friends and enemies, one of Azrai's Adurian
worhsipers and champions (not mentioned because Dhosierre's histories don't
include anything about Aduria) find the mortal body of his stricken god,
injured horribly and reduced to mortal form. He uses his newfound power of
Shadow Walk and takes himself and his god into the Shadow world, whilst
Azrai bleeds out his divine blood there as well.
This forgotten follower takes Azrai back to his center of power in Aduria
(I haven't made the continent yet, don't know just where). In the meantime
(in my own campaign) Azrai's bleeding essence proceeds to form the core of
the Darkchild/Cold Rider Being (more ideas on that guy later).
Azrai has now recuperated for more than 1500 years, still with the adulant
worhisp of may people on the Aduran continent (in my own campaign). Azrai
will one day awaken to reclaim his mantle of godhood, and his power will
have nothing to do with the Cerillian bloodlines (granted, that power must
come from somewhere) Sources:
1) The worship of his chosen peoples. The Adurians have consistently
worshiped him for a long time now, and that generates more power.
2) His high priests are anxious, and so they have taken it upon
themselves to sacrifice the blood power of several Adurian youths to their
god.
Prophecies (in my own campaign) fortell of his rebirth, and is eventual
domination of Cerillia. In time, it will happen.


I hope this satifies the how question.

As to the value of ideas? I could go into a real flame here, but let's not
get that much futher into the muck. Every idea has value and merit.
Dispute that one personally, if you wish, that's why I include my email
addy on most posts.

Tim Nutting
zero@wiredweb.com

PS>
Thik Skinned!? Listen people! Stop insulting others and then telling them
don't get offended by it! I've appologized personally to some offended
parties but by now I'm thinking I made a mistake...

[dsbrown@is2.dal.c]

> I can't believe you seriously think Azrai is not dead. This is the main
> theme of the Birthright Campaign setting. Where else did the bloodlines
> come from?
> Bloodlines are the physical god's essence. If they weren't killed than
> how else can they be explained?


Oh, I don't know, how about..the explosion of a powerful avatar is
also enough to give the bloodlines? Or enough of Azrai's form was
destroyed that the bloodlines were formed, but with the resurgence of
his worship (Hand of azrai) what little of his essence that was not
absorbed by people or rocks, has now gained enough power to return?
Maybe even something along the line of the idea that was posted
earlier (based on Eddings books)? Or is it that none of these even
seem probable? Perhaps you could reference a page for me on the game
applications of a god dieing. What does this mean exactly? Can they
come back? Are mortals able to kill a god on another plane? Most of
the info I saw in the BR books didn't tlak about any of this. In
fact, the majority of the explanation is a historical account by one
of the Dosieres, recording the history of Cerilia as seen from the
humans point of view. I have never seen a game stat on any of this.

> (NOTE- I am NOT talking about your own campaign I mean Birthright in
> general)
>
> If you think disagreement is getting flamed you need to get some thicker
> skin.

For starters, having someone disagree with me isn't getting
flamed..haveing someone call my campaign "bizarro birthright" is. If
you want to disagree, try not using the name calling. Your being
rude doesn't require me to get "thicker skin"


Sean

[Robert Ripley]

dsbrown@is2.dal.ca wrote:

> > I can't believe you seriously think Azrai is not dead. This is the
> main
> > theme of the Birthright Campaign setting. Where else did the
> bloodlines
> > come from?
> > Bloodlines are the physical god's essence. If they weren't killed
> than
> > how else can they be explained?
>
> Oh, I don't know, how about..the explosion of a powerful avatar is
> also enough to give the bloodlines? Or enough of Azrai's form was
> destroyed that the bloodlines were formed, but with the resurgence of
> his worship (Hand of azrai) what little of his essence that was not
> absorbed by people or rocks, has now gained enough power to return?
> Maybe even something along the line of the idea that was posted
> earlier (based on Eddings books)? Or is it that none of these even
> seem probable? Perhaps you could reference a page for me on the game
> applications of a god dieing. What does this mean exactly? Can they
> come back? Are mortals able to kill a god on another plane? Most of
> the info I saw in the BR books didn't tlak about any of this. In
> fact, the majority of the explanation is a historical account by one
> of the Dosieres, recording the history of Cerilia as seen from the
> humans point of view. I have never seen a game stat on any of this.

> It's been thousands of years and no word from Azrai. I would think

that would seem to me that he died when the other gods killed themselves

to kill him. Being that the point of the game is that the gods are dead
I don't see
how he could be alive.
Rulebook referances his death on pages
Pg 79 referances him as "being destroyed"
Pg 73 again as "destroyed"
Pg 5 of Abominations has Azrai being "smote" by the other gods

There is no god killing rules as the designers probably didn't expect
the PCs
to get into a position to fight a god.

(note- not talking about personal campaigns)

> > (NOTE- I am NOT talking about your own campaign I mean Birthright in
>
> > general)
> >
> > If you think disagreement is getting flamed you need to get some
> thicker
> > skin.
>
> For starters, having someone disagree with me isn't getting
> flamed..haveing someone call my campaign "bizarro birthright" is. If
> you want to disagree, try not using the name calling. Your being
> rude doesn't require me to get "thicker skin"

Well it is Bizzaro! Bizzaro like the comic books bizzaro, like Seinfeld
bizzaro. The point of Birthright is that the gods blow up giving their
power to the people... Now if you play where this is flipped upside down
and the gods explode and then are still alive... then it's bizzaro. It's
not being rude... Saying that your campaign is crap and I would never
play in it is rude... Bizzaro is just a term meaning something like
"flipped upside down"

> Sean
> ****
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>

- --

Bob R.

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