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Thread: The Gorgon

  1. #11
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    Originally posted by "Osprey"
    Unless you have a small army of spellcasters ready and able to throw spells at the Gorgon, relying on him rolling a 1 to fail a save is a poor tactic. Hope for luck, never rely on it.
    It's not a question of relying on him to roll a 1 as a tactic. My post was from the point of view of the Gorgon, not the Regents of Anuire. He may not want to make all out war because their is that chance of failure, and if he all the spellcasters of Anuire go against him their are a good dozen who are 10th level or higher, so he does have to fear that. The only problem is that he could assasinate a ton of them, and would only fight them in a group if he was a fool.

    I agree with you Osprey, if a large number of regents grow massively more powerful than any in Anuire right now then they would have a chance of beating him without relying on bad luck on the Gorgons part. But at his current power level and the power level of Anuirean Regents their is no tactic which could be used against him which does not require massive luck. You're campaign is relying on the assumption that all previous rulers have been horribly incompontent compared to your players in both building up realms and gaining levels and that it is not a low level world because of any intrinsic nature. Within a century Cerilia will have become the Forgotten Realms. I am in no way criticising that, i'm sure its a great campaign which the players are enjoying, but it is a major departure from the worlds background and current incarnation.

    If he was only 30th level, with 100+ true bloodline, 1 ancient dragon and a that highlevel cleric backing him up, he would still be massively powerful and a major threat to any realm which he choose to move against, only I think their would be a reasonable chance of the full might of Anuire deployed in an intelligent manner of defeating him. Which would explain why he has not moved yet.

    Honestly, if he was really into farming them he would kidnap the powerful regents, breed them and then bloodtheft their children.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    It's not a question of relying on him to roll a 1 as a tactic. My post was from the point of view of the Gorgon, not the Regents of Anuire. He may not want to make all out war because their is that chance of failure, and if he all the spellcasters of Anuire go against him their are a good dozen who are 10th level or higher, so he does have to fear that. The only problem is that he could assasinate a ton of them, and would only fight them in a group if he was a fool.
    Under what circumstances would even a majority of the regents of Anuire go against the Gorgon? Part of the way Ruins of Empire sets things up is that the regents of Anuire are engaged in endless squabbling, competition, and general stagnation since the fall of the Empire.

    It is my opinion that PC's in the BR campaign setting were never meant to be like the NPC regents from Ruins of Empire. In the beginning, they'll be at the bottom of the pecking order, of course, but eventually they will adventure and rule domains and gain levels and enjoy success more often than not. So a long-term campaign should see the PC's gaining high levels if they keep at it long enough (my campaign has been running for over 2 years now, meeting about once a week).

    You're campaign is relying on the assumption that all previous rulers have been horribly incompontent compared to your players in both building up realms and gaining levels and that it is not a low level world because of any intrinsic nature. Within a century Cerilia will have become the Forgotten Realms. I am in no way criticising that, i'm sure its a great campaign which the players are enjoying, but it is a major departure from the worlds background and current incarnation.
    I think there's something more involved than just my decision as a DM to move the setting in an epic direction: at the domain level, the rules encourage skillful PC regents to rule up their realms well beyond the RoE levels (especially with the added security of some solid alliances between regents with overlapping domains). In other words, the PC's are set to enter the world at a time when it is ripe for change - even if it's not apparent to them in the beginning.

    Based on the original setting, the most apparent plotline for PC regents in Anuire is to be upencoming young regents who do great things with their realms, and eventually are in a position to re-build the Empire (or something like it). That sounds pretty epic to me, and in fact the story works best if the PC's do rise beyond what the NPC regents were ever able to accomplish. If they cannot, then they will be stuck in the same stagnant cycle that the other regents are embroiled in.

    What I'm trying to say is that I don't think the original setting was ever meant to be stagnant and remain at the published levels. If it were, it would be a great experience in frustration for most players and PC's. Rather, I think it was set up to be broken wide open, to allow a group of would-be heroes to make their marks and change the face of Anuire forever.

    Similarly, I think the Forgotten Realms became the way they were as the result of people playing with normal D&D rules, and then extrapolating what would happen in a world filled with people like D&D player characters.

    I see no reason why PCs' in Cerilia couldn't become epic levels, especially if they seek out challenges in the Shadow World as well as the physical and political ones. It's a long, hard road, to be sure, but if you force a setting to remain stagnant, and keep PCs' limited to the levels of ranking NPCs, it keeps the world very small - and allows players and their characters to only ever taste a small piece of the potential of a D&D setting. That doesn't seem terribly heroic to me, yet I feel very confident that the Birthright setting is especially built around the heroic story. PCs reaching high levels means they'll have few peers in power - and this will make their achievements and abilities shine all the more for the contrast.

  3. #13
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    There are a couple of thoughts concerning the Gorgon:


    One commonly posted concept is that when Michael Rhoele gave up his bloodline to the land he "trapped" the Gorgon in his own province. One way it fits is there is no "history" of a Gorgon's march (by himself and not his minions) since his encounter with MR, only rumors and fears.


    Another possiblity is because other than the NPC regents there are also the Awnshegh ones. They have at best a shaky alliance with the Gorgon. It is very logical that they would throw in with the humans, elves, dwarves, etc. to prevent the Gorgon from turning on them also. There is no one creature in all of Cerilia that can withstand the onslaught of the combined might of all (or at least a majority) of the remaining creatures. I believe that Raesene, being the military genius is is supposed to be, has learned from what happened at Deismaar and is waiting for the appropriate time to take the Iron Throne. {The elves turned on Azrai at the last minute and it was this coordination of enemies (elves and humans) that turned the tide. So he has seen how enemies will work together for a common goal, he doesn't want to be that goal.} That time being when the most chaos is involved, say a large war between Avan and Beorine (spelling) and after neutralization of some of his most powerful brethren (Rhoube, etc.) this hasn't happened yet in the published material and only when the individual games have evolved to that point would it happen, at least IMO.

    Another thing to keep in mind, and something that always bothered me about how the setting was designed - is that once the Gorgon is defeated the game is over. What I mean is that, as Osprey pointed out, the original setting (at least in Anuire) is set up to restore the empire and claim the Iron Throne. This is something that has varying effects throughout Cerilia, but is an essential part of Anuirean culture.

    The Gorgon was designed to be the biggest and baddest threat in all of Cerilia. With the setting limitations on other powerful creatures (a lack of dragons for example) without moving on to other "undiscovered" continents or the Shadow World, there is just nothing left to provide an outright challenge in a confrontation. There just can't be any "new" Awnsheglien that suddenly pop up that are more powerful than those with True Bloodlines (Gorgon, Rhoube, Spider, etc.) since one can't suddenly gain a true bloodline or develop one via actions (neither in 2nd ed rules nor in the BRCS). The only ways to get a true bloodline was to have been at Deismaar, be a direct descendant of one who was or through investiture. Pretty much all of which would have been documented via historians throughout Cerilia (especially Anuire and Khinasi).

    After defeating the Gorgon the only thing left for heroes is to handle the more mundane politicking of rulership. Gosh anyone that defeats (and can prove it) the Gorgon would pretty much be handed the Iron Throne, if not by the chamberlain than by the people.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #14
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by The Jew@Mar 31 2005, 05:26 AM
    You're campaign is relying on the assumption that all previous rulers have been horribly incompontent compared to your players in both building up realms and gaining levels and that it is not a low level world because of any intrinsic nature.
    What Elminster of Shadowdale can answer?

    Excerpt from FRCS The Concerns of the Mighty

    "I might surprise Manshoon or old Szass Tam and burn him from the face of Toril - or he might do the same to me. It's a rash and short-lived hero who presses for battle when victory is not assured".
    And so on. Rest of the text is at page 84 FRCS.

  5. #15
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    Originally posted by "Osprey"
    Under what circumstances would even a majority of the regents of Anuire go against the Gorgon? Part of the way Ruins of Empire sets things up is that the regents of Anuire are engaged in endless squabbling, competition, and general stagnation since the fall of the Empire.
    Once the Gorgon had smashed through Mhoried, which he would pretty much have to and could easily do if the Gorgon actually tried to conquer all of anuire. That could Unite Anuire. The unleashing of his dragon onto the battlefield.

    This thread was started by asking why the Gorgon hadn't conquered the Empire yet. Well since he hasn't really tried, and never entirely defeated Mhoried, it's reasonable to assume that should such an event occur that the Regents might react in a more organized fashion than usual. I'm not saying that they would, but its definitely a possibility.

    I'm not going to argue with you on the subject of leveling up to epic levels, though i'm not conceding the point. Your game sounds like a lot of fun, I wish I was a part of it, but it's not in the style that i'm planning when I DM my own birthright game.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Once the Gorgon had smashed through Mhoried, which he would pretty much have to and could easily do if the Gorgon actually tried to conquer all of anuire. That could Unite Anuire. The unleashing of his dragon onto the battlefield.
    You know, I was just reading through Mhoried's original description in RoE the other day, and one particular piece of text caught my eye, concerning the Guardians of Mhoried (p. 39):
    "It's said that once they even repelled the Gorgon himself!"

    Now I don't know how you take that, but to me this says that it's legend and near-myth that once, once out of all the generational rampages of the Gorgon's armies, did the armies of Mhoried actually defeat the Gorgon and his armies when they attacked. Implying that all of the other times Mhoried's forces have been wiped all over the earth and used for fertilizer, while the other realms of Anuire have sat back and prayed that the Gorgon wasn't coming for them next!
    No, few regents have the cojones to even dare to challenge the Gorgon if they're not defending their own realm. Even the existing alliances (like Alamie-Mhoried-Cariele) are pretty frail and likely would crumble in the face of a serious invasion.

    Anyways, attacking Mhoried without incredibly overwhelming force would be a foolish move for the grandmaster of strategy. Costly and a big bleeping target for Anuirean allies to gang up on him. Danged lil' nugget of resistance is Mhoried.

    IMC, I've had the big G take a different tact: he marched from the Gorgon's Crown into the lower Giantdowns, easily sweeping aside the pathetic Watch and the few settlers there. Occupy, invest, then build highways, straight from kal-Saitharak to the doorstep of Dhoesone...now the Gorgon has a whole new front on Anuire.


    I'm not going to argue with you on the subject of leveling up to epic levels, though i'm not conceding the point. Your game sounds like a lot of fun, I wish I was a part of it, but it's not in the style that i'm planning when I DM my own birthright game.
    Aw, c'mon, it's fun! :lol:
    Nah, just kidding, to each his own of course. My recommendation, though, is that if you want to get away from power-gaming and stat-crunching, use a system other than D&D - better yet, use a non-D20 system entirely. They're all power-centric and stat-driven, which often detracts from the story (sheesh, do I know it). Part of me loves the stat-crunching, but the storyteller in me hates it...

    Anyways, good luck when you do run a campaign...I'd love to hear your ideas for it sometime.

    Osprey

    osprey424@yahoo.com

  7. #17
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    I think I'll interject and try to answer Midnights' original question.

    Why the Gorgon hasn't just marched forth and claimed all of Anuire or even Cerilia.

    Let me recap a little of what others have written.

    1. The Gorgon, a brilliant tactician, is aware of what a united Anuire could do to his forces. While he himself may be able to mow down entire armies he can't exactly hold alot of territory without the use of a standing army with which to garrison and enforce his law.

    2. The Gorgon is a very good mage some may even say a beginning archmage. He is not however the most powerful nor the only high level mage in Anuire. In the above posts five other high level mages have been identified. If these individuals are pushed enough they may turn around and stomp on him. Fighter levels only mean anything to an archmage if the target can get within weapons range of the wizard. Otherwise it only means high hitpoints and solid fortitude saves. I think it's safe to assume to the Gorgon only began picking up Wizard levels after mastering his fighting capabilities. He strikes me as that methodical.

    If I missed any please let me know but I think that about covers it. Here's some additional points.

    3. The Gorgon is over two thousand years old. I would imagine boredom is the one opponent he can't beat. Why rule over all of Anuire when he can march out every few decades and have a rousing good time slaughtering? He's a fighter at heart and all fighters are men of action. Thus being involved in some combat action I would imagine is pretty high on his list of things that keep me awake.

    4. Same goes for kidnapping powerful bloodline scions and breeding them. Breeding does not increase a bloodline, it merely maintains it. A scion engaged in good rulership and constant struggle raises his bloodline. The Gorgon is treating Anuire like a breeding project. He's treating Anuire as if he were it's God. Let the mortals fight amongst themselves and select the greatest of them for ahem..."advancement". Also just breeding them falls again under the above boredom issue.

    The following are some theories I've developed with a great deal of help from fellow players and my GM.

    5. Perhaps when the Gorgon ran Michael Roele through he didn't get the bloodline but perhaps something else transferred? Slaying your last living directly related relative affects people, even twisted evil bastards. A shard of Michaels mind or spirit in the Gorgons mind/spirit? An almost tragic multiple personality issue could develop. Every time the Gorgon stands on the precipice of total victory the voice in his mind gets louder and more insistent, driving him to distraction and screwing up his chances.

    6. The human mind has issues holding onto memories of more than a few decades, or even retaining personal details and knowledge of more than a hundred people at any given time. It's only meant to hold so much information at it's current capabilities. A tremendously extended lifespan does not mean the brains functions will change to match. So what if the Gorgons mind hasn't changed to match his vast life expectancy? He'd have trouble retaining memory and information from more than say a hundred years ago. I would imagine staying connected to the everyday world is difficult for such a person and developing longterm plans may be easy but short term and immediate future stuff would very likely become difficult. After a thousand years of longterm planning the idea of a plan taking only a few days to complete would be almost like a completely new concept.

    7. With great power comes great enemies. The other awnsheigh I doubt would be terribly excited after thousands of years of independance to have to bend knee or be destroyed by the Gorgon. Especially Rhoube or the Spider. The Gorgon is a brilliant tactician and I'm sure something like this has occured to him. Also I think the Gorgon is probably one of the few beings that is he should take absolute power over Anuire and eventually Cerilia the Gods themselves may take a direct hand. The closer he comes to a god in power the more the existing Gods will take note of him. Again, this is something he very likely has thought of.

    Well; hopefully these will help you out Midnight. Just some thoughts I've had and I'm sure at least one of them can help you out. Obviously feel free to use or not use what I've written or even use them as a basis for your own ideas.

    Justinius ExMortis

    "The Righteous are the first to fall for their cause. They're also the first to fail to further their cause because of this mighty sacrifice."

  8. #18
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    A word about this bloodlines breeding.

    Not only Gorgon can do it, but every smart awnsheghlien too.
    Imho it makes a "Highlander"-like rituals of bloodtheft a technology a la nazi.
    You know, one "dr Mengele" is That One Mad Scientifist but a lot of doctors is a bug of the system.

    Maybe You can create:
    - a blood ability
    - realm spell
    functioning like a Contingency spell eg. "If they will catch me and I will XXX, my bloodline will be transfered to my children".
    ?????????????????????

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    And back...
    Midnight's question is a quastion about many more creatures than Gorgon.
    In our setting there is eg. Moergan Deepshadow, ex-assassin, ex-condotier, ex-diabolist acolite and present marshall of 2000 condotiers, self-proclaimed ruler of Calrie and mercenary of Kalien. He is an CE epic level Ftr an there is no match among Anuirean fighters for him.
    He is an NPC. I created him many years ago as a lieutenant for PC guilder regent at Coeranys (as an assassin), but until then he became a NPC-hero of several adventures (killed White Witch with PCs among them) of two generations of our PC-heroes of Anuire. He survived.
    And now he is growing older. What can do such as nearly invincible fighter (and his epic pirate captain Gypsy girl-friend) when they are nearly old.
    Kurgan (from "Highlander" movie) said: "It's better to burn out than fade away!"
    A it is sad truth for older heroes.
    What he can do?
    ??????????????????????


    stats: Moergan Deepshadow: Male Half-Fiend Human Anuirean Ftr12/Asn1/WaM7; Medium Outsider (augmented humanoid, native); CR 23;
    HD 1d6+19d10+140; hp 336;
    Init +4; Spd 40 ft/x4; Fly 30 ft.(avg);
    AC 38 (+12 armor, +4 dex, +6 natural, +5 deflection, +1 misc), touch 20, flat-footed 34;
    Base Atk/Grapple +19/+31;
    Full Atk +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 (2d6+23+[1 Con, wounding]+[1d6, sneak]+[Fort DC14 or die, death attack]+[20, smite good]+[Fort DC20 or 1d6/2d6Con, poison]; 17-20/x2, Shatterspike Greatsword+3 of Wounding),
    +25/+25/+20/+25/+10 (1d8+11+[1d6, sneak]+[Fort DC14 or die, death attack]+[Fort DC20 or 1d6/2d6Con, poison]; 20/x3, Composite Longbow+1 of Distance and Seeking [+10 Str]),
    +31/+31 (1d10+11+[Fort DC14 or Contagion] +[1d6, sneak]+[Fort DC14 or die, death attack]; 20/x2, 2 Claws);
    SA: Sneak Attack: 1d6, Death Attack: Fort DC14, Smite Good(Su): 1/day, dmg +20, Spell-Like Abilities
    SQ: SR 30, Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, fire 10, sonic 10, Immunity to poison, DR 10/magic, Darkvision 60 feet.
    AL CE; SV Fort +26, Ref +19, Will +13;
    Str 32(+11), Dex 19(+4), Con 25(+7), Int 16(+3), Wis 12(+1), Cha 24(+7);
    Skills: Craft (siegecraft) +27, Diplomacy +18[+22], Heal +3, Intimidate +9, Listen +13, Ride +6, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +14, Spot +13, Use Magic Device +21.
    Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Critical(Greatsword), Leadership (31), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), Greater Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization(Greatsword)

    Battle Standard(Su): Battle Cry and Rally Troops as long as the standard is within range, and held by you.
    Battle Cry(Su): +1 to hit and dmg, 7 rd, 7/day.
    Direct Troops(Su): +2 competence bonus on attacks or skill, 7 rd.
    Rally Troops(Su): second saving throw against fear and charm. Even if they fail the saving throw, any fear effects are less severe: panicked characters are only frightened, frightened characters are only shaken, and shaken characters are unaffected.
    Hard March: +4 morale bonus to Con

    Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day: Darkness, Poison, Unholy Aura, 1/day: Desecrate, Unholy Blight, Contagion, Blasphemy, Unhallow, Horrid wilting, Summon monster IX (fiends only), Destruction
    Spells: Obscurement, True Strike

    Possessions: Oxidized Mithral Glamered Demon Armor of Sonic Resistance and Light Fortification, Helmet of Charisma +6, Ring of Mind Blank, Ring of Protection +5, Vest of Resistance +5, Robe of Freedom of Movement, Eyes of the eagle, Cloak of Natural Armor +5, Scarab of Protection, Bracelet of Friends, Gauntlets of giant Strength +6, Belt of health +6, Boots of speed, Bag of holding type IV, Gem of Seeing, Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone), 20 doses of Deathblade poison

  9. #19
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    A good summary. I think it's valid to say this again too:

    Ultimately, the Gorgon as a foe was one of those creatures that it is up to the DM to figure out why he doesn't conquer everything. It could be any of the reasons above. Or a mixture of all of them.

    Heck, one BR campaign I played in, rather than ran, had a Sauron scenario for him... that all his power was tied into a device or item. Destroy the item, and you destroy him. And he couldn't travel with the device... it was stuck at Kal Saitharak. So, he could leave it unguarded by him, to go on his rampage, or he could send forth his minions to do his bidding.

    Mostly, I have stuck with the idea that he is pinned in Kal-Saitharak for some reason nowadays... and that it mostly has to do with his blood ability. That he has tied himself too strongly, either because of Michael Roele, or his blood, to the place, and is weakened the farther he gets from there. Pinned because somehow, Michael's bloodline, infused with the Arcane Sanctum that was established there by Raesene, combined to make a curse on Raesene. How weakened? A rule of thumb for me was for EVERY province removed from Kal-Saitharak, he has all of his ability scores and damage reduction, including his Bloodline strength, reduced by 5%. Not much, you may say... until you realize that ALL of his abilities are reduced by 30% just to attack Mhoried. If he marched all the way to the Imperial City, it's a loss of 70%... making him dumb as a brick and a strength of only 13. He loses his spell abilities, plus a massive chunk of his hit points. Losing 30% of his ability scores on the border of Mhoried using BRCS stats makes him at least manageable. It reduces all those bonuses to the point that he can actually possibly be driven back by Mhoried's army... especially if you reduce his damage reduction as well. It also reduces his blood powers and death gaze to a more manageable level. It even means that his spells are weaker; he doesn't even have access to his highest level spells.

    What does this do? It makes for a foe that in the seat of his power, is absolutely nearly indestructable (barring some of the plans some of you folks above have posted). A permanent thorn in the side of Anuire, that even an Emperor may not be able to defeat with all their armies... but lure him out, and he could be defeated. In fact, the Gorgon himself is terrified of going to the Shadow World, and being completely cut off from his power... which could kill him. (lose 5% of his abilities every round in the shadow world) Interestingly, this ties into a previous thread about teleportation - as I view every teleportation done in BR as stepping through the shadow world, even momentarily, Gorgie teleporting would make him lose a further 5%of his attributes until he returned to his seat of power.

    The weakness in this is that why hasn't he at least conquered a wide RADIUS around Kal-Saitharak? Well... I didn't say the plan was completely perfect.

  10. #20
    Gorgon = cheese.Thats all.

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